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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#136727: Nov 6th 2021 at 9:46:46 AM

This should answer your question

Short answer,not really but there's been a few exceptions

Edited by Ultimatum on Nov 6th 2021 at 4:47:01 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#136728: Nov 6th 2021 at 9:47:25 AM

The funniest thing about Killmonger Black Panther is he immediately went to the Avengers and said hey I’m black panther let me join, to their very polite bafflement

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#136729: Nov 6th 2021 at 10:07:53 AM

The tricky thing is: A fictional character being replacable is a much less offensive message than an actor being replacable. Because one's real and the other one is not.

This is missing the point of why we need black characters in the first place.

Characters are representation. Characters are presence in the cultural output of the a society in which we live. And - though it sometimes comes off as blunt - characters last longer than loving people and tend to have more of an effect on how we learn, how we are perceived, and how we perceive ourselves - especially children, for whom media is an important factor in social development.

All of those things are incredibly important. None of those things should be dismissed because they’re not “real,” because at the end of the day those effects are real.

Millions of people would never have known Chadwick Boseman even if he had lived. But those people will know T’Challa. And again, this is one of the reasons Boseman chose the roles he did: because he wanted to get those stories out there.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 6th 2021 at 10:17:02 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#136730: Nov 6th 2021 at 10:14:50 AM

I can understand both sides of the story. But my personal preference would still be leaving him dead.

Perhaps for a very egoistical reason: I just cannot stand recasts (without in-universe justifications).

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#136731: Nov 6th 2021 at 10:15:27 AM

I am not dismissing the power of fiction (I'm a writer by trade, after all) or the importance of representation, and I can see those points raised just as well as you do. I am, however, noting what you yourself even recognized "can come across as blunt" with the valuing of fiction above the real life trajectory of people. My take on this has always been that it's a very complex situation and that acting like anything here is clear-cut (one way or another) and the only right way to honor Chadwick Boseman's legacy is a grave mistake.

You brought up children, even. Could the story of T'challa's rememberance after death not be a incredible tale of grief and memory for children, something they definitely must grapple with?

Edited by Gaon on Nov 6th 2021 at 10:17:25 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#136732: Nov 6th 2021 at 10:18:20 AM

In short, not recasting is good for Chadwick Boseman’s memory, but a step backward for representation in general.

And given his ideology and career, I doubt Chadwick Boseman would disagree that the latter is more important. It’s blunt, yes, but so is the truth that African American cultural output is something we can table and put away when it looks good to do so, which is the message out out by not recasting.

Heck, arguably it’s not even good for Chadwick’s memory, since it’s getting rid of the thing he helped create in favor of pinning him up as an image.

For emphasis: representation is important.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 6th 2021 at 10:21:25 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#136733: Nov 6th 2021 at 10:21:47 AM

If this was about truths, you wouldn't have Anthony Mackie and Angela Bassett seemingly directly disagreeing with this notion of how to honor Chadwick's legacy. They're not deluded nor lying to themselves about the lack of recast being a net good, they just view what to do now about representation as different.

There are no hard truths. The only truth here, in fact, is death and the absence of a man. Everything else is smoke in the water.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#136734: Nov 6th 2021 at 10:22:45 AM

I wasn’t aware those two specific people were more of an authority than anyone else on the topic of representation.

You brought them up before, and I ignored it because “someone famous agrees with me” doesn’t really say anything - especially given that they knew Chadwick personally and would obviously skew to the option that personally invests in him more. I obviously disagree with them too.

But in general, “representation is important” isn’t subjective, and I disagree with the idea that it stops being true if it’s not convenient for everybody. Especially since Chadwick was a man who gave his all for representation.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 6th 2021 at 10:28:14 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#136735: Nov 6th 2021 at 10:27:41 AM

But if they're played by a different actor, then how much are they really the same character? They're gonna look different, sound different, and no matter how much the new guy tries, inevitably they're going to be played differently.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#136736: Nov 6th 2021 at 10:28:12 AM

I mean, given that another black actor/character is gonna act as his successor, I think representation isn't exactly missing here?

Edited by Forenperser on Nov 6th 2021 at 7:02:07 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#136737: Nov 6th 2021 at 10:34:16 AM

As I explained last page, pulling Discard and Draw on characters that inspire people, especially when the reason in real world politics, and even more especially if they could just as easily introduce more than one instead, sends the message that those things that inspired people are ultimately disposable, and in doing so walks a step backward on the cultural impact those characters had at first.

One of the things we have to look at here is the fact that Black Panther is an exception in a franchise dominated by white headliners. This would not be an issue if, say, there were loads of black led superhero series out there and Black Panther wasn’t deified by the black community for finally being something they can look towards.

Going “you can’t have your one black hero any more , but don’t worry we’re going to roll another black hero to fill that slot, just as good right?” is a poor sell, and even if that replacement is just as good it’s still a slap in the face. And it’s bad for Shuri, because it establishes her as a replacement instead of her own character (and also draws attention to the current tokenism involved in Wakanda’s existence).

It’s be like making a film about Wong or Wenwu, but only if in doing so they cancelled Shang Chi. With all the heroes upon heroes the other characters’ series are allowed to create, there no reason why we can’t have - say - T’Challa and Shuri, instead of having to made due with only one major black characters at at a time.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 6th 2021 at 10:47:17 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#136738: Nov 6th 2021 at 10:38:12 AM

They were his co-workers and friends, I brought them up on that account, which I feel obviously earns them a specific degree of listening. You and I did not participate in the making of Black Panther and the molding of the character we are discussing here, but these two did, in their own ways. I've never said they're the end-all, be-all opinion on the subject (in fact I have deliberately avoided making authoritative and definitive statements, as I don't think you or anyone else should be making those except Boseman's friends and family), but their opinion merits consideration for those reasons.

Personally, I'd be more willing to agree with the idea that not-recasting T'challa damages Chadwick's legacy and representation in a objective way if that meant BP 2 was cancelled on that account. Wakanda is still there, the many other performers from Black Panther are still there, and I think it's plenty possible to show reverence and homage to T'challa by way of his absence and memory in the film itself. Not only that, given the heavy themes of the own film and franchise about the importance of overcoming death and loss, dealing with the grief of this loss through the film fits like a glove, possibly moreso than acting like death doesn't exist with the elephant in the room (that Chadwick Boseman is, in fact, dead). Representation matters for death and spirituality (particularly given the film's very heavy spiritual bent towards the pre-islamic religions of Africa), too.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#136739: Nov 6th 2021 at 10:56:31 AM

[up][up] That comparison doesn't work, for two reasons.

First, because Wong and Shang-Chi really have nothing to do with each other. Replacing one with the other would make no sense other than for Token Minority reasons. By contrast, replacing T'Challa by having someone else take up the Black Panther mantle keeps his supporting cast as well as the setting of Wakanda in the picture, and those are at least as important as far as representation goes.

Second, Marvel is currently producing both a Blade movie and a Sam Wilson Captain America movie, in addition to continued Black Panther movies, so clearly they're not operating on an "only room for one black hero" principle.

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#136740: Nov 6th 2021 at 11:00:05 AM

It seems like there really is no good answer here. Barring a full MCU reboot, I guess we'll have to make do with never seeing a live-action depiction of T'Challa ever again.

And even then, I've seen some people that are against that, saying that Boseman was the only person who could ever play T'Challa in anything period. I disagree, it's not like when Heath Ledger died nobody was ever allowed to play the Joker ever again. If they went that route, we would've missed out on two live-action Jokers, one of which was just as great. And the other one was... eh, coulda lived without that one, I'll give you that.

Edited by lbssb on Nov 6th 2021 at 11:03:38 AM

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136741: Nov 6th 2021 at 11:04:54 AM

[up] The two other Jokers that came after Ledger are part of different film continuities. So far, there's only one Black Panther film series. And I highly doubt Marvel is going to make a spinoff reboot franchise for the character that's disconnected from the MCU. It would be needlessly convoluted.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Nov 6th 2021 at 11:07:01 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#136742: Nov 6th 2021 at 11:11:58 AM

[up]That's the point I'm making. I've seen people saying that there should be no other T'Challas ever, even in the event of a potential reboot in the future, because of Chadwick Boseman, and was commenting on why I disagree.

Edited by lbssb on Nov 6th 2021 at 11:12:28 AM

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136743: Nov 6th 2021 at 11:16:33 AM

[up] Oh. Well in that case I do agree with you.

Though I'm pretty sure the chances of the MCU getting rebooted are pretty damn low right now...

Edited by MatthewWayne on Nov 6th 2021 at 11:16:41 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#136744: Nov 6th 2021 at 11:24:29 AM

This is, likewise, the big problem with the "Shuri can just take his spot" chain of logic. The problem isn't T'Challa vs Shuri. The problem is that we're only allowed one major black hero in the first place, and instead of being able to enjoy a wide range of characters who look like us on the screen like white audiences do (also the main flaw in the "they could replace Cap with a different hero no problem, so why not T'Challa!" logic from last page - Cap is one of a sea of major white faces), we instead have to Discard and Draw a single character slot rather than live in a world where we could actually have more than one: there's nothing keeping us from having T'Challa and Shuri save for the fact that Marvel doesn't want to do that.

On the other hand, we wouldn't be limited to just T'Challa or Shuri since Falcon, Ironheart and War Machine exist.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#136745: Nov 6th 2021 at 11:28:39 AM

Though of all of those, only Sam gets a film, and Sam will evidently be sharing his franchise with Bucky. I’d love it the emphasis on what being a superhero means when one is black from F&WS continues into Cap 4, but it’s a toss up whether they’re going to commit to that long term.

And unfortunately, Rhodey and Ironheart’s series aren’t going to be out for a while yet. Marvel only just recently started fitting minority led series into their schedule.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 6th 2021 at 11:31:34 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136746: Nov 6th 2021 at 12:43:37 PM

Ya know the funny thing about Shuri not being a serious Black Panther, is that in the comics when she did become BP she was a pretty serious one I hear.

She was essentially a Wakanda nationalist and frequently fought her brother over their differing opinions regarding the outside world and at one point exiling him for believing him responsible for Namor flooding Wakanda or for not seeking retribution against him.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
XMenMutant22 The Feline Follies of Felix the Cat Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#136747: Nov 6th 2021 at 12:58:44 PM

Side note: According to Buzzfeed, ever since WandaVision, there's been an uptick in babies with the names Wanda (54%), Darcy (11%), Agatha (32%) and Vision (22% among girls, notably).

Edited by XMenMutant22 on Nov 6th 2021 at 4:28:39 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#136748: Nov 6th 2021 at 1:08:23 PM

MCU Shuri and comics Shuri pre-2018 are basically two different characters. Nowadays thanks to the movie inventor Shuri has become the norm in the comics as well though there’s still some attention drawn to her prior history.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#136749: Nov 6th 2021 at 1:18:46 PM

Vision? I mean seriously, being geeky is cool and all that, but why would you name your kid that?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136750: Nov 6th 2021 at 1:20:52 PM

[up][up] It’s similar to Star Lord. Character being retooled to be more similar to their movie-self in spite of the several differences between the characters including age. Funny to think about.

Also unrelated but as much as I rag on them it is a shame what happened to the Inhumans. Cause I just read about War of Kings and it sounds pretty dope.

Black Bolt king of the Kree vs Vulcan the third Summers brothers and Emperor of the Shi'Ar face each other in a grand epic war that ends in a battle that quite literally tears a hole in the fabric of space and time.

Sounds like fun stuff.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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