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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#136576: Nov 3rd 2021 at 4:41:47 AM

[up][up]

He needs a memory wipe according to the Star Wars treatment of droids

Edited by Ultimatum on Nov 3rd 2021 at 11:42:20 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#136577: Nov 3rd 2021 at 5:59:59 AM

The problem with MCU Ultron is his total lack of development. He references 616 Ultron rather than being an adaptation of him.

Ultron hates Tony. He flips out on Klau for stating correctly that he's a Stark design and Vision assures Tony that Ultron despises him more than any other Avenger. Ultron has an undercooked Oedipus Complex that goes entirely unexplored. Why? Because he's supposed to have one. No other reason.

His motives jump around a lot. He was created to achieve peace, which he's decided can only be done by destroying the Avengers. For some reason. And he's going to do that by exterminating humanity. Which he wants because he's fascinated by evolution and something something humans are evolutionarily stagnant. But also he wants to become human all of a sudden.

It's all just gibberish so that he can do whatever he's supposed to do for the plot to happen. Ultron is not a dynamic character, but instead makes choices and has opinions based strictly on his role in the story as both villain and a rendition of the Ultron character.

Also the film features implications that Loki's scepter made him and that's why he malfunctioned like this, but this is never actually explored in any capacity. The film is wholly uninterested in who Ultron is or why any of this is happening.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:00:22 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136578: Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:39:49 AM

[up] I would argue that Ultron having inconsistent goals and irrational decisions that frequently contradict what he supposedly believes in makes sense, given he's supposed to be a malfunctioning, but scarily competent A.I. And from that perspective, it's kind of interesting to watch Ultron do what he does.

But I do agree that overall, the character was wasted. He's literally just a generic Phase 1-2 villain disguised as an interesting Phase 3 villain that will never get any sort of development ever again discounting What If. Now I'm not quite as bothered by all of the quips he makes, but I can see why that would turn people off.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#136579: Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:48:39 AM

Vision came out fine thanks to Thor bringing down the thunder of God to give him life.

In other words only when someone came in and messed with his project did it not turn hostile.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:49:05 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#136580: Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:49:58 AM

To be fair, Comics!Ultron also has no adequate reason to be evil. The moment Ultron went online, he immediately hated Hank Pym and was like, "fuck you dad, go suck my robo dick."

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#136581: Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:51:12 AM

[up]On the other hand, is hank pym, you can hate freely with no other reason whytongue

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#136582: Nov 3rd 2021 at 7:12:14 AM

It's later explained that Ultron was motivated by Hank Pym's own repressed misanthropy and self-loathing. Hence why he almost immediately started hating his creator — he's the embodiment of Hank Pym's own inferiority complex and resentment of other people.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#136583: Nov 3rd 2021 at 9:02:11 AM

I would argue that Ultron having inconsistent goals and irrational decisions that frequently contradict what he supposedly believes in makes sense, given he's supposed to be a malfunctioning, but scarily competent A.I. And from that perspective, it's kind of interesting to watch Ultron do what he does.

That isn't a very good reason for it, though. If he's malfunctioning and insane, that should be the plot point, but the movie doesn't really act that way. The movie doesn't treat Ultron as though he's inconsistent in-universe (the closest we get is that one line of "he doesn't know the difference between saving and destroying" line which isn't ever really explored). He's just written inconsistently, which makes "well, he's malfunctioning" more of a handwave than anything.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 3rd 2021 at 9:08:46 AM

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#136584: Nov 3rd 2021 at 9:33:25 AM

I don't know if I'd say Ultron was that inconsistent, tbh. He determines almost immediately that Humans Are Bastards and are to him the biggest threat to world peace, and from the beginning his end-goal is always some kind of mass extinction event as a form of biblical cleansing. With Wanda and Pietro he sees kindred spirits that he legitimately believes will help him all the way through and wanted to spare, but as soon as they betrayed him he just said fuck it and went through with dropping Sokovia. The one kinda throwaway is him having "I'm not my daddy" issues because he's Ultron and of course he does.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136585: Nov 3rd 2021 at 10:07:32 AM

It comes across to the issue that Ultron as a character is supposed to be a very personal threat between him and his creator yet said rivalry winds up very under baked because they never went to the same degree of horrible obsession and shame Hank has with Tony, it’s under baked to the extreme lacking any sort of interesting complexity or pathos.

Plus disguising his flip-flopping of master plans with cool “I like the Bible” stylings.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 3rd 2021 at 10:10:08 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#136586: Nov 3rd 2021 at 10:09:38 AM

That last point is a shame, too, because the idea of a robot on a religious crusade is a really interesting one, and imo they could have done a hell of a lot with even just that if they had actually picked something to focus on.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136587: Nov 3rd 2021 at 10:32:54 AM

I'm reminded of this article a month ago that delved into Ultron's character, how the movie didn't get it right at portraying him, and how the graphic novel Rage of Ultron released around at the same time the movie came out did a better job of understanding the character.

Pretty good stuff here especially the comparison to Frankenstein or comparing Ultron relationship with his father to a parent who discovers their kid is a shooter.

https://www.ign.com/articles/rage-of-ultron-what-if-marvel-true-origins-avengers-villain

Ultron’s desire for companionship overlaps with another story of creation gone wrong - Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein or The Modern Prometheus. It’s a common joke to say, “Actually, Frankenstein was the scientist, not the monster.” This joke misses the forest for the trees, though. Victor Frankenstein is both the scientist and the story’s monster. He deserted Adam, his son by intent if not blood, at the creature’s birth because Adam didn’t conform to Victor’s expectations; Adam’s rage against his father is the rage of an abandoned child. It is this same rage that burns within Ultron.

Remender writes Ultron much like Shelley’s Adam: determined to avenge himself on a parent who would not love him. The comic even rewrites Ultron’s birth and the original falling out with Hank. In a flashback from Avengers #58, Ultron tried to kill Hank seconds after being born for no reason at all. In Rage’s version, however, Hank - convinced by the robot’s cold cynicism that he made a mistake with its programming - tries to destroy Ultron first. Ultron resents his father for this and it’s why, even in his general misanthropy, he reserves a special hatred for Hank Pym. By making Ultron’s legacy of violence the fault of not just the android himself, but Hank as well, the comic in turn explores Hank’s own simmering resentments and how those bled into his creation - with Hank as his creator, Ultron’s rage was predestined.

While coated with superhero pomp and spectacle, Rage of Ultron is at its core a somber story about the blend of love and resentment which fills the relationship between a parent and their child. Indeed, it has less in common with any MCU movie, and more with Lynne Ramsay’s We Need to Talk About Kevin. In Rage, Hank assumes the role filled by Tilda Swinton’s character Eva Khatchadourian: a parent wrestling with having brought a monster into the world. In turn, both stories ask if a parent’s love is truly unconditional - if someone can love a being determined only to hate.

This begins with the cover of the book. Ultron’s visage casts a shadow which engulfs all the Avengers, but it’s Hank whose image aligns with, and is dwarfed by, Ultron. The meaning of this composition is two-fold. For one, Ultron and his father are the same - two manifestations of the same being, with only one unburdened by humanity. Second, Ultron is the shadow which Hank will forever cast. The achievement for which he’ll be remembered is not one of his scientific or superheroic feats, but having created his own greatest enemy.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#136588: Nov 3rd 2021 at 10:58:04 AM

Another Hawkeye TV spot:

Okey Dokey!
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#136589: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:55:33 PM

Time for discourse. I thought this thread might appreciate, or at least give some thought to, some of the points here because we've been harping on about how everything now must be setting up something huge, which leads to annoying rumors and entitled fans.

It’s Time to Stop Making Post-Credits Scenes. (Note: That leaked Eternals casting is in the byline.)

The almighty post-credits scene—a surprise stinger that sets up the next adventure—becomes a staple feature. Audiences have been Pavloved into finishing off the last remaining crumbs of popcorn in their seats for 15 minutes, just so they can see a 60-second-long tease for a project that's usually years away from debuting.

[...] If you've found yourself in the catacombs of Reddit or You Tube lately, you'll know that the culture created by the post-credits scene—one where we're obsessed with reveals and Easter eggs and fan theories—has fundamentally changed how we view blockbuster movies. The culprits include nearly every blockbuster franchise, including Star Wars, DC, and Marvel, of course. Take the upcoming Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, for example, which by many accounts will be Marvel's biggest event since Avengers: Endgame. You can't click a stray Reddit hyperlink without ramming into a sketchy-looking, computer-generated, alleged leak of concept art from the film. (Which, by the way, is probably, most definitely, fake.) Take a look and ask yourself: What are we doing here? Creating our own post-credits-esque moments in souped-up Photoshops?

[...]

We're at the point where superhero movies are telling us that the next sequel or spinoff is more important than the film you're watching the trailer for.

At my screening of [Eternals], I heard hardly any chatter about the actual story, acting, humor, drama, whatever—as I walked out. Instead, the person to my right, just looked over at me and asked whose voice you can hear off-camera in the second post-credits scene. Sure, The Eternals isn't a perfect film. But maybe, if we weren't talking about the Harry-Stylesification of the MCU, we would be spending more time celebrating the film's successes and mysteries.

[...]

Even Marvel boss Kevin Feige recently tipped his hat to the culture he created. “The danger is when you get into the expectations game of wanting people to be excited about the movie they get, and not disappointed about a movie they don’t get,” he said of Spider-Man: No Way Home.

Edited by Synchronicity on Nov 3rd 2021 at 4:55:43 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#136590: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:00:06 PM

I recall Film Crit Hulk saying that he was annoyed by the post-credit scenes in WandaVision and Loki because they contained vital information actually important to the plot of the next episodes but were placed somewhere where the audience might easily miss them, especially if they’ve been conditioned by previous episode credits to expect nothing there.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136591: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:03:08 PM

While I do enjoy waiting for post-credit scenes as an extra tease for what's to come, I can also completely understand why people are sick of them or downright despise them. If we were to phase them out going forward, it might be for the better.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#136592: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:04:26 PM

put the post credit scene at the start of the movie,problem solved!

Wait a minute..

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136593: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:13:09 PM

That would should be the thing.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#136594: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:46:41 PM

I like when stingers aren’t a teaser so much as one last joke or something

Like the Iron Man 3 stinger which revealed that the whole time Tony had been telling his story to Bruce, who had dozed off at the very beginning. Prompting Tony to start the story all over again but even further back out of spite

Good stuff

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#136595: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:50:40 PM

My dad still gives me shit (jokingly, of course) for staying for the final stinger for Homecoming. I still think it's one of the best parts of the movie:

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#136596: Nov 3rd 2021 at 3:51:07 PM

[up][up] Funnily enough, I always they should have used that to segue into them discussing Ultron.

[up] That was indeed one of my favorite jokes from that movie.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:51:56 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#136597: Nov 3rd 2021 at 5:55:53 PM

The article is a valid criticism aimed at the wrong target. The problem isn't post-credit scenes, it's the fanbase whipping itself into a frenzy over theorycrafting and Easter egg hunts. They want to be teased more, and for the teasing to be part of the movie's DNA.

Like, say what you will about the the MoM "leaks", but the article's completely mischaracterizing the whole point. The allure isn't in the idea that it's the last 60 seconds after the credits, it's that it's 5 to 10 minutes within the first 30. Similarly, most of the Eternals chatter revolving around the post-credit scenes is less people having no care for these things beyond setup for the next ones and more people gripping at straws because the movie unfortunately didn't interest them otherwise.

Edited by Watchtower on Nov 3rd 2021 at 8:58:07 AM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136598: Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:18:12 PM

[up] Does this mean Marvel should make more joke post-credit scenes to lower audiences' expectations? It might make the theorycrafters mad, but it might be the healthy thing to do.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:18:31 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#136599: Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:21:50 PM

Even Marvel boss Kevin Feige recently tipped his hat to the culture he created. “The danger is when you get into the expectations game of wanting people to be excited about the movie they get, and not disappointed about a movie they don’t get,” he said of Spider-Man: No Way Home.

That sounds exactly like what happened when WandaVision's big twist turned out to be that it was a story about Wanda (gasp) and not a vehicle for introducing the X-Men or Mephisto or the multiverse.

Okey Dokey!
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#136600: Nov 3rd 2021 at 7:46:45 PM

Again you don't mock people with a dick joke, and then supposedly Patrick Steward Xavier just to kill him according to MOM rumors.

Just Makima.

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