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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136302: Oct 27th 2021 at 6:20:51 PM

If I'm willing to look on the side of optimism here, all the Spider-Man superfans who have been following every live-action film featuring the character will be familiar with every single villain that will reappear in this film thus far, so we might not need as much of an introduction for each character like we did before. I also worry that it still might be too much, but with all the villains' backstories and exposition explained in other realities, we might have more time to see them do cool shit.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136303: Oct 27th 2021 at 6:24:44 PM

It should be noted this movie is nearly 3 hours long so they have a lot of time there.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#136304: Oct 27th 2021 at 6:35:20 PM

Spider-Man 3 didn't really have a "too many villains" problem so much as a "too many villain arcs" problem.

Venom, Sand Man, and the Green Goblin all had different stories with different motivations whose only real connection is that they coincidentally happened at roughly the same time.

With NWH, I think a big part of the issue is resolved by all the villains having effectively the same backstory: They are a representation of all the crazy stuff found throughout the multiverse, with a significant lean towards people who have fought different versions of Peter Parker.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#136305: Oct 27th 2021 at 7:08:51 PM

[up] Basically this. The problem isn't too many villains, it's too many plotlines. Sandman, Goblin Jr, and Venom are all the "main" villain at different points of SM3, basically fighting each other for dominance. And while ASM2 cuts down on the villains (or at least recognizes that Rhino is a Joke Character) it overloads on all the Osborn Peter's dad bullshit.

The Russos' MCU filmography is one where they increasingly overload each consecutive movie with more characters but it never feels overstuffed because the story knows how to weave them all to one plotline and who's more important than who. NWH under Marvel Studios's eye should be able to do just fine.

Edited by Watchtower on Oct 27th 2021 at 10:09:07 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#136306: Oct 27th 2021 at 7:56:08 PM

Having a boatload of villains in No Way Home can work... if they're mostly just there for glorified cameos or a couple fight scenes, instead of each having their own arc.

I could see maybe a plot where instead of having a central villain, the main "antagonist" is just the fucked up reality Peter needs to fix, with the assorted timeline villains basically being more akin to nuisances or obstacles he has to contend with along the way. Like a bunch of minions without a leader, at least in terms of narrative importance.

Come to think of it, the MCU hasn't actually done that yet, has it? Have the central threat be a dangerous environment, object, or other non-sentient force. It's always been a human or humanlike entity driving the plot and serving as the ultimate physical threat in the end. The closest I can think of is Civil War's "real" villain being the concept of the Avengers splitting up, but even then it still manifests itself as Baron Zemo and then Tony Stark.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#136307: Oct 27th 2021 at 7:57:44 PM

The Russos' MCU filmography is one where they increasingly overload each consecutive movie with more characters but it never feels overstuffed because the story knows how to weave them all to one plotline and who's more important than who. NWH under Marvel Studios's eye should be able to do just fine.

I would say that worked great on Captain America: The Winter Soldier, but they stumbled a bit with Captain America: Civil War. Civil War would've honestly had more room to breathe as a five hour miniseries than as a movie. Because while the finished product did try and focus on Captain America and his relationship with Bucky, events and cameos outside that kind of took over the movie at times to the point that it felt like the movie was fighting with Steve, Tony, Zemo, T'Challa, and Bucky, etc. all vying for screen time and focus. It was definitely a juggling act to keep the movie focused on Steve with almost everyone else in the Terran-based sector of the MCU sharing the screen with him. Infinity War and Endgame were much more streamlined (the former relying heavily on cast herding for the heroes while having Thanos as a Villain Protagonist, and the latter having a lot of the big players tucked away until the final battle).

Come to think of it, the MCU hasn't actually done that yet, has it? Have the central threat be a dangerous environment, object, or other non-sentient force.

I feel like WandaVision could be added to that list, since the Hex (Wanda's magic) was harming the people of Westview.

Edited by dmcreif on Oct 27th 2021 at 10:58:52 AM

Okey Dokey!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136308: Oct 27th 2021 at 8:04:12 PM

Nah Civil War did it pretty good too. Like as said all the players follow a unified plot line and they all contribute to the overall story.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#136309: Oct 27th 2021 at 8:23:13 PM

[up][up][up] Ant-Man and The Wasp was more about recuing Janet from the Quantum Realm then fighting any particular bad guy.

Sonny Birch and co. were really just obstacles to be overcome, and their capture was purely incidental to the climax of the movie.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#136310: Oct 27th 2021 at 8:27:38 PM

Yeah, that one too, now that I think about it. That's actually part of why it's one of my favorite MCU movies, it's such a breath of fresh air.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Oct 27th 2021 at 11:28:10 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136311: Oct 27th 2021 at 8:36:34 PM

I still don't understand why so many people hate Ant-Man and the Wasp. Yeah it's not exactly record-breaking by any means, but it's still a fun flick. I also like how the climax has everyone weaving through San Francisco in an epic chase scene.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#136312: Oct 27th 2021 at 8:42:09 PM

I don't know anybody who actively hates it, but it does get slept on a lot, I think. And yeah, the three-way car chase battle is one of my favorite climax setpieces in the entire MCU.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136313: Oct 27th 2021 at 8:44:36 PM

Yeah, there's a loooot of people who like to dunk on that film for some reason.

Honestly, I feel like I like the Ant-Man movies because I kinda relate to Scott. Just being a guy who wants to do his own thing and just coincidentally gets swept up in a bigger picture. I like that.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136314: Oct 27th 2021 at 8:46:06 PM

Scott's honestly one of the best leads cause he's just such a good guy.

Just wants to live out his probation period, get back to work, and be with his family who all love him, but as said he keeps getting caught in Pym family bullshit and has to bail them out of their fuckups.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#136315: Oct 27th 2021 at 8:47:51 PM

Scott is a good character but I don't think he works as a lead in the Ant-Man films. That's mostly because the plots aren't about him, they're about Hank and Scott is only dragged along for the ride.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#136316: Oct 27th 2021 at 8:50:13 PM

I really, really love grouchy old Hank Pym as a character.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#136317: Oct 27th 2021 at 8:52:19 PM

I kinda like that Scottt is just a Nice Guy helping people out with their problems and on the way helping himself. It's a nice change of pace from the other heroes who tend to have extremely personal (and often self-inflicted to varying degrees) problems. Scott's plots are mostly about helping others and that's that.

Edited by Gaon on Oct 27th 2021 at 8:52:45 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#136318: Oct 27th 2021 at 8:57:49 PM

I definitely don't hate Ant-Man and the Wasp, I was just kind of hoping for another heist film and the movie was... not really that. But it's still a very good sequel.

Although it's a minor thing but I do absolutely HATE the post-credits scenes. It's not even really for any rational reasons, because everything about it I can articulate, other MCU post-credits and endings are just as guilty of, but... ugh. Makes me mad every time.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136319: Oct 27th 2021 at 9:00:16 PM

Yeah, you can see why Scott would gravitate more towards the likes of Steve Rogers than Tony Stark. He's an entirely selfless and moral dude who does whatever he can without asking for much of anything in return. I'm really curious how he's going to bounce off of other heroes if he ends up in another ensemble film.

[up] Honestly, I actually really liked the second credit scene. It perfectly encapsulated the horror of everything going to hell in a handbasket in regards to the aftermath of what Thanos did. The first one is good too, but that Emergency Broadcast System noise with the drumming ant...*shivers*

Edited by MatthewWayne on Oct 27th 2021 at 9:01:54 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#136320: Oct 27th 2021 at 9:04:38 PM

I love the Ant-Man movies... it's just that as a huge fan of Hank Pym as a character, I'm annoyed that he never got to be the lead of his own movie and essentially sat out all the films for a team he was a founding member of.

And then of course this led to the comics trying to pretty much erase/demonize him because bRaNd SyNeRgY.

Edited by lbssb on Oct 27th 2021 at 9:05:44 AM

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#136321: Oct 27th 2021 at 9:06:35 PM

Hank has had a long history with the short end of the stick, even before the MCU.

Wake me up at your own risk.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136322: Oct 27th 2021 at 9:07:59 PM

Same with Wasp too. Shame what happened to those 2.

Earth’s Mightiest Heroes is probably the best incarnation of Hank.

[up][up] Poor guy is still dead. He got his soul eaten in the shitty Infinity Wars event after being forcibly merged with Ultron.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 27th 2021 at 9:08:36 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136323: Oct 27th 2021 at 9:09:13 PM

I think there's a reason why people want some sort of series that focused on S.H.I.E.L.D during the 60s, 70s and 80s. So that way we can see Hank and Janet in their prime, and see what the organization was like as HYDRA was infiltrating it. Maybe we get more Arnim Zola and Howard Stark too!

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#136324: Oct 27th 2021 at 9:09:44 PM

[up][up][up]Yeah, but it got especially bad after the movie (Pymtron, secret Russian daughter he's a deadbeat towards, had his soul fucking erased during Infinity Wars)

semi-[nja]'d by slimcoder, but yeah, you get the idea.

Edited by lbssb on Oct 27th 2021 at 9:10:40 AM

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136325: Oct 27th 2021 at 9:12:52 PM

Man Hope Van Dyne is such a weird attempt at synergy. She was obviously created to cash in on Hope Pym's but she's a completely different character from her movie counterpart.

Its kinda like how DC after the popularity of Kaldur in Young Justice they decided to implement him in the comic but as a rather different individual named Jackson Hyde.

[up] Do you really count as a deadbeat if you had absolutely no idea the child ever existed? Its pretty mean to consider Hank a deadbeat for something he had no idea of.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 27th 2021 at 9:13:49 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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