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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136251: Oct 27th 2021 at 10:52:17 AM

Such a shame about her actress, she’s fucking crazy.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#136252: Oct 27th 2021 at 10:53:33 AM

If I remember right, Valkyrie, Hope, Nebula, Gamora, Mantis, and Shuri are also present.

The legend has returned.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#136253: Oct 27th 2021 at 11:03:10 AM

And all of them get plenty of characterization, if not their own solo movies, so I don't really see the complaint on that point. You could just as easily call it the March of the Sidekicks, most of whom happen to be female.

It is completely reasonable to complain that Marvel has too many guys as the main characters. I agree. But it looks like Phase 4 may be making an effort to address this, such as by giving Hope double-billing with Scott in Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 27th 2021 at 2:03:24 PM

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dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#136254: Oct 27th 2021 at 11:05:18 AM

I think it would've been a bit more organic if instead of every female hero, it was just the really powerful ones. So Wanda, Carol, Pepper, and maybe Hope.

I'll say this about the Endgame finale battle in general, in that I would honestly reorganize a lot of the other parts of the fight. It has its good moments like Cap wielding Mjolnir, Giant-Man walloping a Leviathan, Scarlet Witch wrecking Thanos, but aside from that it’s more of the same "heroes vs. CGI fodder" from the last 3 films. Not even mentioning the stupid stuff like Thanos full on elbowing Tony in his helmetless face and Tony being fine a moment later.

They could have utilized the Black Order better and had a bunch of smaller focused fight scenes within the battle that better uses some of the other heroes, resulting in some unexpected team ups between heroes. I think there was some concept art of Wanda aiding Doctor Strange. You could also do things like Bucky and Hope vs. Corvus Glaive, Quill and Rocket vs. Proxima Midnight, Wanda and Mantis vs. Ebony Maw. And so on.

Okey Dokey!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#136255: Oct 27th 2021 at 11:28:11 AM

And all of them get plenty of characterization, if not their own solo movies, so I don't really see the complaint on that point. You could just as easily call it the March of the Sidekicks, most of whom happen to be female.

It is completely reasonable to complain that Marvel has too many guys as the main characters. I agree. But it looks like Phase 4 may be making an effort to address this, such as by giving Hope double-billing with Scott in Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania.

We were already told that phase three was taking strides to correct that. Hope was given double-billing with Scott in Ant-Man and the Wasp, Captain Marvel was getting a movie and would be a critical deciding factor in Endgame as well as the mightiest Marvel hero, Black Panther would introduce the smartest Marvel character ever in Shuri, and Black Widow would finally get that long-awaited film that fans have been pushing for.

What we got was Black Widow killed off, Gamora killed off and a Replacement Goldfish tossed in, and Shuri, Scarlet Witch, and Captain Marvel all tucked away in closets to keep them from affecting the plot. But it was pretty neat that, for the second time in a row, Hope needed some guy to come in and solve a plot that he had nothing to do with and that rightly should have just been about her, I suppose.

(Oh, and then What If? had Thor beat up Captain Marvel, just in case anyone was really taking that "Strongest Character in the MCU" stuff seriously.)

So. Yeah. Now we're being told to hold our breath for phase 4? Cool. I look forward to seeing how Phase 4 lets down its female characters and then being told that maybe Phase 5 will be different.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 27th 2021 at 11:28:43 AM

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#136256: Oct 27th 2021 at 11:31:15 AM

Okay, you're just straight-up lying at this point.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#136257: Oct 27th 2021 at 11:56:43 AM

I object to calling Gamora a Replacement Goldfish. She's the same Gamora, just from the past.

Edited by RavenWilder on Oct 27th 2021 at 11:56:57 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#136258: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:00:45 PM

"The same Gamora" just with every single defining moment of her characterization from the second she first stepped onscreen erased from her character history. The Gamora we know died and will remain dead forever with all of her experiences dying with her, but a factory-reset temporal clone was put back into the MCU to appear in Guardians 3 in her place.

How is that not a Replacement Goldfish?

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#136259: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:10:59 PM

Yeah, as a Gamora who isn’t our own, but a duplicate from another timeline with none of the experiences and inclinations of our Gamora whom both Nebula and Quill use (well, attempt to use in Quill’s case) to supplant the loss of their Gamora, New Gamora is pretty bluntly a Replacement Goldfish. Time will tell if Guardians 3 continues this (most likely yes, frankly).

On a writing side, it’s even more obvious, because it’s an attempt to still have a Gamora while maintaining the idea that Gamora is dead. New Gamora is blatantly a replacement Gamora.

I know a few series who attempt the “we can kill off this character for drama, but then replace them with an alternate version of them, and it’ll more or less be the same” thing, but it has the same implicit problems.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 27th 2021 at 12:18:18 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136260: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:16:05 PM

Clip from Eternals

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#136261: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:17:50 PM

Funny thing is, the writers clearly meant to do it as a way to avoid making the MCU a Death Is Cheap wasteland like the comics. But this is actually one of the methods that the comics use to make death so cheap. The 616 is full of clones, temporal versions of characters, alternate reality copies, etc. etc.

Just off the top of my head, original copies of the first X-Men class got shunted forward in time to the present day, an elderly Wolverine from an apocalyptic future got shunted back in time after Wolverine died, and Cletus Kasady found an exact copy of the Carnage symbiote in a parallel universe after his original symbiote was destroyed.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#136262: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:18:30 PM

It’s a consequence of the rigidity of not wanting to resurrect characters under any circumstances ever, while also having popular marketable characters they don’t actually want to let go of: thus, Discard and Draw a duplicate from another timeline/universe/simulation, etc.

And yes, it’s definitely a situation where either “keep Gamora dead” or “screw it, just make an exception and resurrect her” would have been better ideas.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 27th 2021 at 12:28:59 PM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#136263: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:19:54 PM

Gamora's still alive, it's her relationships with the Guardians that have been destroyed. So there's still something precious that's been lost, but Gamora herself is doing just dandy.

Like, if Gamora got hit with amnesia that permanently erased the last few years of her memory, would you say she was dead?

Edited by RavenWilder on Oct 27th 2021 at 12:21:46 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#136264: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:25:18 PM

Gamora is explicitly dead. Her death was essential for getting the Soul Stone, and that event was never reversed. Same with Natasha. They’re both gone.

The Gamora we have now is another version from another timeline. This does not undo the fate of the Gamora we came to know, who is still dead.

It was a plot point for whatever reason: they could only bring back specifically those who died to the Snap. Nobody who died before, during the course of Thanos’ crusade, in between, etc.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 27th 2021 at 12:28:13 PM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#136265: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:25:31 PM

[up][up]That's not the same thing as killing and replacing her. The replacement after death is a prerequisite to be the goldfish.

Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 27th 2021 at 2:25:52 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#136266: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:33:38 PM

I wonder what ever became of her original timeline. There now exists a timeline where Thanos, the Black Order, his two daughters, and all of his many forces abruptly dropped out of existence and never returned right around the same time that Peter Quill found the Power Gem in the original timeline.

That's, uh. That's a substantial change. Wonder if the T.V.A. wound up having to prune it, or if they're just still out there somewhere, living in a universe that will never endure the Blip.

It'd be neat to see the Thanos-Free Timeline show up in What If? or something.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 27th 2021 at 12:34:36 PM

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Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#136268: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:40:03 PM

[up][up][up] What about when Dr. Strange used a time loop to undo all his deaths at Dormammu's hands? Does that mean the Strange at the end of the movie is a different character from the one we started with, who died in the Dark Dimension?

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#136269: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:42:19 PM

'sigh' No, because he literally still has all the memories and character development.

Gamora does not. I really don't see what's so hard to get about this.

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#136270: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:44:28 PM

I think the key is not to think about the implications too much, Strange died over and over which should have driven him insane from the trauma alone

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#136271: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:44:50 PM

[up][up][up]Strange rewound time (something that so far the Time Stone) has only been shown to do, so he didn’t create any duplicates.

Whether Strange subsumed the consciousness that would have been in that body at that time is an interesting question, but that’s starting to get entirely Watsonian in what is both a Watsonian and a Doylist problem. Strange rewinding time doesn’t result in his accomplishments up to that point ceasing to be a present aspect of the character, nor does the story remove a Strange from the narrative only to provide a new one for the characters to latch onto instead.

[nja]’d Forenperser said it better.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 27th 2021 at 12:45:39 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#136272: Oct 27th 2021 at 12:47:10 PM

Memory wipes aren’t really comparable to death and Replacement Goldfish because in both big cases of memory loss in the MCU (Bucky and Carol) it was made clear their old memories were still there, just suppressed, and eventually their old persona managed to resurface again,

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#136273: Oct 27th 2021 at 1:00:13 PM

2014!Thanos' timeline would be an interesting timeline to visit in What If. Sure some bad guys are gone, but the main change is that Gamora has been kidnapped away before anyone could benefit from her friendship.

Like, does Ronan or Ego win if Gamora isn't a part of the guardians?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#136274: Oct 27th 2021 at 1:22:43 PM

What happens with Ronan is a fascinating question to ask. Gamora isn't there to steal the Power Gem from Quill, but Quill also got knocked out before he could get the Gem, which is going to delay his acquisition of it long enough for Korath the Pursuer to arrive, isn't it?

So, does Quill even still manage to get away with the Power Gem? And if he does, does the huge altercation that got everyone arrested happen? What about Yondu and the Ravagers, who show up after both Quill and Korvath? Hell, did Steve remember to bring the Power Gem's spherical casing, or did he put the raw fucking Gem in there which will vaporize any poor bastard that touches it?

I'd be very interested in a What If? episode about Guardians 1, Abrupt Erasure of Thanos and All Associated Characters Edition.

(Hell, it's possible that Ronan might just do something else. He didn't know the casing contained an Infinity Gem; the original plan was that he'd retrieve the mysterious sphere object for Thanos, and then Thanos would wipe out Xandar for him. If he doesn't find out what's in the casing and also Thanos fucked off into oblivion, he has no reason to keep pursuing it!)

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 27th 2021 at 1:26:08 AM

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MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136275: Oct 27th 2021 at 1:35:00 PM

Y'know, it would be cool if the Mad Titan Gamora episode that we didn't get to see for Season 1 is actually the alternate 2014 timeline. For all we know, Tony could've gotten lost in space and met Gamora after Thanos and his army vanished from that universe.

I don't think that's what will happen, but it would still be cool.

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