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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136076: Oct 24th 2021 at 7:09:16 PM

Oh Hell yeah they've been overused, poor guys have fallen into uniqueness decay.

The first arc of the current Avengers run was literally an invasion by the "Dark Celestials" and ended with the Avengers going Kaiju sized with Iron Man in a giant suit and Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider possessing a Celestial corpse.

As with any long running franchise they ran this shit to the ground.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 24th 2021 at 7:09:29 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#136077: Oct 24th 2021 at 7:11:35 PM

I do think the "MCU formula" gets a tad vague after a while. Like Wandavision having a wizard showdown as a setpiece. It's a comic book superhero story, they are built on some form of confrontation.

The MCU can, granted, stand to diversify the method of its climax more (like with Doctor Strange one having its crux of the climax being Strange playing mindgames with Dormammu) and you can definitely criticize the execution (BW's climax is probably its weakest part for me) but sometimes it feels like watching a german expressionistic film and complaining everything looks nightmarish and gothic: that's how its supposed to be.

Edited by Gaon on Oct 24th 2021 at 7:12:30 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#136078: Oct 24th 2021 at 7:13:56 PM

Yeah, you can't not have some kind of superpower confrontation in a superhero movie.

It'd be like trying to make a Slasher movie without a villain killing anyone.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136079: Oct 24th 2021 at 7:19:05 PM

Like I can get complaints about Shang-Chi's ending since the entire film was building up Shang's ultimate confrontation with Wenwu so the Demon-Dweller is arguably less interesting than the well choreographed martial arts.

But the Eternals is about a group of Demigods hunting dangerous monsters. That kinda necessitates a spectacular climax, even more so than most.

Its like how people complain about the Venom movies being big CGI monster fights and the common reaction to that is obviously "Well how else would they bring the symbiotes to the big screen?"

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 24th 2021 at 7:19:54 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#136080: Oct 24th 2021 at 8:36:04 PM

[up][up][up], [up][up] Thinking through what movie comes to mind when people deride the "Marvel formula" made me realize the movie people want is Joker (2019): dark, brooding, grim, noir-esque character studies where superheroes exist but are just a feature of the world rather than the main course. No jokes, no supervillains, no final battles, just simmering with these characters and no doubt the fucked-up-ness of their lives.

And like...I didn't like Joker, but I imagine even if you did like Joker that you really wouldn't want everything to be like Joker. Like, you might say you do but you don't, not really. You need a little bit of sweet to counter all that sour.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#136081: Oct 24th 2021 at 8:43:58 PM

I didn't like Joker either, but the Venn diagram of people who shilled it as the savior of superhero art is probably a circle with those shilling the Battinson film as the same (which I actually am quite curious about).

Personally the best MCU works are the ones that slap cooler, better things on top of the formula. But I'm always on the lookout for stuff that's less Joker and more The Umbrella Academy (2019), which, for all its flaws, at least does fun and unique things with the powered person concept without falling over itself.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136082: Oct 24th 2021 at 8:44:07 PM

The funny thing is Doctor Doom can prolly get his own movie along those lines.

I mean not noir and brooding but definitely dark and plenty of ham. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#136083: Oct 24th 2021 at 8:44:58 PM

I think that is what DC is attempting with Black Adam.

[down]This is where I'm at basically [lol]

Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 24th 2021 at 10:49:04 AM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#136084: Oct 24th 2021 at 8:48:27 PM

Thinking through what movie comes to mind when people deride the "Marvel formula" made me realize the movie people want is Joker (2019): dark, brooding, grim, noir-esque character studies where superheroes exist but are just a feature of the world rather than the main course. No jokes, no supervillains, no final battles, just simmering with these characters and no doubt the fucked-up-ness of their lives.

That's not what I've seen, in my experience. A lot of people who complain about the usual MCU cliches don't want dark and edgy. If anything, I've seen a lot of those same people deride dark and edgy stuff. They just want a bit of variety is all.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136085: Oct 24th 2021 at 8:55:04 PM

I will say I could do with less bathos.

Like I enjoyed Thor: Ragnarok but even I admit it could get too much at times.

Or Hell the main reason why I'm against Shuri succeeding T'Challa is out of fear that we would get a quipping Black Panther and I don't want a quipping joking Black Panther. I like BP cause he's serious and pretty chill, I don't want him cracking jokes every minute.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#136086: Oct 24th 2021 at 8:57:44 PM

I kind of blame Whedon for this.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#136087: Oct 24th 2021 at 8:59:55 PM

Specifically directing Avengers, being critically acclaimed for it, and Disney going "Yes, more of this in everything"? Honestly yeah, that's probably fair.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#136088: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:01:36 PM

A lot of Ragnarok's jokes were genuinely funny, and had some proper pathos and action to back them up - it's not like every serious moment was undercut by some attempt of humor ("What are you, god of hammers?" is my favorite of these, I think).

The problem was that it did happen a few times, though not nearly enough to ruin the movie for me.

Oh God! Natural light!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136089: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:01:48 PM

[up][up] He did fuck over Ultron.

Telling nonstop jokes = more Human.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 24th 2021 at 9:03:18 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#136090: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:03:24 PM

Of course, criticisms to the MCU come from multiple sides (as does praise). As far as the specific thing I mentioned of aversal to showdowns in superhero stories (despite grandiose showdowns being one of the backbones of the genre), I'd say the superhero film those types of critics would want would actually be Unbreakable (incidentally qute possibly my favorite superhero film). Which is a superhero film built on being a introspective psychological drama that eschews the traditional spectacle of the genre as much as possible. Though even it does feature dramatic (by the film's standards) confrontations, same for its successor Split which has a even more over-the-top climax.

Personally I love dramatic showdowns in superhero narratives, seeing these quasi-mythological manifestations of conflicting philosophies battling for the soul of mankind. It's what I'm here for. As mentioned, my criticism would be more that they can vary more the methodology of the showdown (e.g mental mindgames or a more typical martial arts fisticuffs blow-to-blow fight).

What I do actually find gravely wanting in the MCU (and in superhero feature-length films of this age in general) is the more violent, urban pulp vibes where they'd both be extremely gothic, violent and dark but also farcical, outlandish and over-the-top at the same time. Examples of this in the big-screen are the likes of Batman Returns, The Crow, Darkman, Hellboy (and its sequel), Blade.

Dream the crow, black dream...

Edited by Gaon on Oct 24th 2021 at 9:03:57 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#136091: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:06:45 PM

A good Daredevil movie would probably fit that mold.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#136092: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:08:12 PM

Moon Knight is upcoming for next year.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#136093: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:08:35 PM

Everything's a bit too...sleek these days, too samey. They need to find a way to vary things up a bit more.

Oh God! Natural light!
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#136094: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:08:36 PM

Like I enjoyed Thor: Ragnarok but even I admit it could get too much at times.

The weird thing is that I've often seen Ragnarok as exempt from the complaints about the MCU being too joke-y. Though I think that's partly because Taika Waititi's style of humor is a little bit different than the more Whedon-y stuff other movies aim for.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136095: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:10:39 PM

Oh fuck yeah Moon Knight.

"Why can't I hit you?"

"I'm not real."

"Let me tell you a thing about Black Spectre. He really just wanted to be loved. He wanted his dad and his wife to love him. Wanted his crew to love him. Wanted the whole city to love him. I don't know you. Let me tell you a thing about me. People who love me suffer and die. I never wanted to be loved. That's why I always win."

[up] I guess cause Thor 2 was such an absolute low bar Ragnarok is basically a masterpiece compared to it.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 24th 2021 at 9:12:44 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#136096: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:12:31 PM

Good Moon Knight stories should always leave you wondering if Moon Knight is just an unstable man, an actual bonafide champion of a moon deity...or a bonafide champion of a moon deity who is also an unstable man.

Edited by M84 on Oct 25th 2021 at 12:12:46 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#136097: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:14:11 PM

There's a few that could scratch that itch of mine. Moon Knight, so far, is the most likely candidate for something like what I want, partially because of the seemingly much greater amount of freedom Disney is giving in those first Disney exclusive shows. There's also the hypothetical Blade movie on its way, and even Doctor Strange 2 has possibilities (it is after all directed by Sam Raimi, who also directed the aforementioned Darkman) but it remains to be seen if they will cross that threshold.

We really need a good adaptation of The Shadow too, in that note. After all, who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#136098: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:14:17 PM

Interestingly there is a concurrent discussion going on at Twitter about Wes Anderson's directorial style because the guy has a new movie out (his picturesque, soft cinematography has its haters). And part of it is that, you know, his stuff might not be your thing but it has artistic value, which is well...less prioritized for mainstream pop culture. Which is not to say that action movies should be high art, but you don't want the art to get lost in the mush if everyone wants more MCU and MCU-like stuff all the time. I think Marvel is aware of this too, which is why they started hiring directors with acclaimed lower-key films to their name (Coogler, Waititi, Cretton, Zhao, and Da Costa).

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#136099: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:18:50 PM

I think Marvel is aware of this too, which is why they started hiring directors with acclaimed lower-key films to their name (Coogler, Waititi, Cretton, Zhao, and Da Costa).

The weird thing is I've seen a lot of people ridicule this for various reasons. I don't exactly agree with a lot of the ridicule (James Gunn came from an indie background but most people seem to like him and the Guardians movies, same with Waititi) but I've seen it pick up heavily with Eternals.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#136100: Oct 24th 2021 at 9:22:03 PM

I can't find it anymore but a tweet after DC hired Emerald Fennell to draft a Zatanna project after Promising Young Woman came out to generally positive reactions basically asked, "should mainstream superhero media be the 'career next step' for the up-and-coming creatives"?


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