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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136026: Oct 24th 2021 at 1:59:48 PM

Granted its worse in Plas's case since his whole thing is basically using his powers to their absolute limit, becoming a total cartoon character.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136027: Oct 24th 2021 at 2:01:44 PM

[up]x7 I'm not sure officially integrating Ant-Man, Black Panther and Spider-Man into the Avengers sooner would be a good return policy for a shittier ending that makes it feel like a generic "Avengers save the day" plot. Yeah, I agree the Team Cap and Team Stark camps got a little too heated for no reason, but at least that discourse was something new and interesting both in-universe and out of universe. It emphasizes that there are some aspects of both characters that can't be budged.

Also, Steve and Cap briefly fighting only to become teammates again within the same film would literally just be copy-and-pasting from both Age of Ultron and the first Avengers movie. And I guaranteed people would be very annoyed at the Fleeting Demographic Rule.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Oct 24th 2021 at 2:02:23 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#136028: Oct 24th 2021 at 2:06:09 PM

I wouldn’t have liked the ending of the team reuniting and fighting all those Winter Soldiers at all. The “heroes fight each other but then forget all their arguing to fight an out nowhere foe” is so overdone and just a lazy way to cop out of the central conflict. It makes all the previous debate about what the heroes stand for seem meaningless. Definitely the right decision in my opinion to subvert it.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#136029: Oct 24th 2021 at 2:10:56 PM

The fact they picked the ending for Civil War that they did was fortuitous since it was released around the same time as Batman v Superman, which did exactly the same kind of ending as the one we're talking about and got a lot of flak for it.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 24th 2021 at 2:14:47 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#136030: Oct 24th 2021 at 2:15:30 PM

I think a lot of the polarization also wouldn't have happened if Tony's role in the story was smaller. I mean, the way the story is structured, I can see where the criticism some have about the movie being more like "Iron Man 4" than a "Captain America" story originates.

Okey Dokey!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136031: Oct 24th 2021 at 2:16:50 PM

Its also a very good twist in general.

Pretty sure no one expected Zemo to actually kill them.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 24th 2021 at 2:17:24 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#136032: Oct 24th 2021 at 2:21:06 PM

Wasn't the side-choosing intentional? They said they picked a cut of the movie that had the most test audiences arguing over which side was right, that was clearly an intended reaction to the film.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#136033: Oct 24th 2021 at 2:33:31 PM

They said they picked a cut of the movie that had the most test audiences arguing over which side was right, that was clearly an intended reaction to the film.

The way they did that was by trimming Steve's scenes until half the audience supported Tony. As a result, Steve has only a minute or so more screen time and his one-on-one scenes are quick cuts, while Tony has long conversations. Steve's arguments are established through actions more than dialogue, the opposite for Tony.

Edited by dmcreif on Oct 24th 2021 at 5:33:54 AM

Okey Dokey!
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136034: Oct 24th 2021 at 2:41:35 PM

[up] So it's literally Show, Don't Tell vs. Tell, Don't Show?

...that's kind of a cool idea ngl

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#136035: Oct 24th 2021 at 3:05:21 PM

[up][up]Yeah, Steve bad side(if you want to call it) come more analizing is actions and context while tony can be see more easly as flaw, the whole "I need to help people" dialogue with tony probably is a good example: it sound like steve is saying "if there is problem I need to go" which is sound like standar heroism stuff but it really can sound "I will do what I feel is right, other cant stop me" which indeed it does sound very arrogant and kinda contextualize what tony said to peter.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#136036: Oct 24th 2021 at 3:06:58 PM

So apparently the Creative Committee insisted that people would absolutely hate Guardians 2's big twist, in case you needed any more proof just how out of touch they were.

"The thinking was, when you tell your fan base that Kurt Russell and Chris Pratt are going to be playing father and son roles — two beloved actors from different generations who have hit action-comedies on their resumes — you're signaling that they're in for a great time,"

So glad they were dissolved and didn't get their way.

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#136037: Oct 24th 2021 at 3:07:59 PM

I think a good What If...? story for Civil War would be a roleswap. The airport fight but with Ant Man on Team Iron Man and Spider-Man on Team Cap. Or where Tony was Anti-Accords and Steve pro-Accords.

Okey Dokey!
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#136038: Oct 24th 2021 at 3:26:31 PM

I feel for Tony and Steve to be on opposite sides, the events they went through prior to Civil War would have to go completely different.

Steve knows how badly governmental institutions can be taken over thanks to HYDRA's take over of SHIELD, while Tony is guilt-ridden over Ultron and the destruction of Sokovia. I feel the most accurate way for them to be on opposite sides would be for something similar to the Sokovia Accords to occur shortly after the events of the first Avengers movie. Steve's still has faith in institutions like SHIELD and Tony's still has a bit of an anti-authority streak.

Of course then, you wouldn't have stuff like Bucky or Zemo thrown into the mix, so I doubt events would get as heated as they did in Civil War. Although Thor and Bruce would most likely get involved, so you'd never know...

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#136039: Oct 24th 2021 at 3:29:44 PM

[up]Is intersting because cap and tony feel like oposite sides back in avengers: cap was all about being part of a team and obey(more or less) while tony was more like "fuck authority I do what I want" and suddenly they more or less shift positions.

I will said the airport fight is probably THE biggest what if potential ground, since the fight can only happen because everyone else in the team were down, bring another avengers and thing changes BIG time.

Which for me is a sort of flaw of the movie: for all the babbling about zemo being so good, nearly all the avengers beat themselves in the airport leaving exactly the two he need it for is plan to work, it feel he plot handle him the win really.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#136040: Oct 24th 2021 at 3:32:00 PM

[up] It is him taking advantage of an opportunity they provided him.

So critic reviews of Eternals is coming out.

At the moment, on Metacritic 61% out of 18 reviews, 10 positive and 8 mixed while on Rotten Tomatoes a 74% out of 38.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 24th 2021 at 3:32:21 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#136041: Oct 24th 2021 at 3:36:06 PM

[up]Problem with that he cant predict the air port fight to turn out like it did, specially since thing could have turn very differently very quickly, vision and wanda could have stop tony for starting the fight with cap and just catch zemo for example, is also why Is hard for me to take his "I beat the avenger" seriously because there was barely any avenger by the time he play is trick.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#136042: Oct 24th 2021 at 3:47:23 PM

Yes. Zemo was running on a Gambit Roulette. His plan required the airport battle to go down exactly as it did, with everyone on Team Cap getting locked up except Steve and Bucky (and being in a position to disclose the info on the Winter Soldiers to Tony when he visits the Raft to question them), while everyone on Team Iron Man save for Tony is either too injured or disillusioned to go with Tony to Siberia. (Actually, it should be noted Lex Luthor also was running a scheme this way in Batman v. Superman, Civil War's competition)

Imagine if something went different during the airport battle that led to either Tony, Steve, and/or Bucky not showing up, or all three showing up plus additional Avengers. For instance, if Wanda and Scott make it to Siberia with Steve and Bucky, they'd be able to easily break apart the rocketproof glass Zemo is hiding behind. If Vision shot down Tony instead of Rhodey, the video's again pointless because Rhodey's not going to react the same way Tony would (unless we're to assume Rhodey would take the video and show it to Tony in the hospital). And so on and so forth.

Edited by dmcreif on Oct 24th 2021 at 6:47:59 AM

Okey Dokey!
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#136043: Oct 24th 2021 at 3:50:44 PM

Tony would have found out eventually. Zemo just needed SOMEONE who's not Bucky or Steve to get to Siberia.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#136044: Oct 24th 2021 at 3:52:24 PM

I’d say Zemo’s plan is less comparable to Luthor’s because Luthor acted as if he knew everything would happen just as it did while Zemo mostly stuck to just trying to get to Bucky and got lucky that he caught the Avengers on a really bad week.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#136045: Oct 24th 2021 at 3:56:14 PM

The funny thing about the "Let's You and Him Fight, followed by teaming up against a supervillain" thing is that the Creative Committee weren't the first to come up with the idea. The video game Marvel: Ultimate Alliance 2 was an adaptation of the Civil War comics; players are invited to choose the Pro-Reg or Anti-Reg side and fight it out through the comic storyline.

Then, at the end, it takes a twist. An evil nanite Nick Fury threatens the Earth, and the two sides have to put aside their differences and work together to defeat him. The Registration Act is suspended and everyone comes together, and the day is saved.

At the time, the game was hailed as infinity times better than the comic event it adapted. It was considered the correct and proper way to tell the Civil War story. It was beloved by much of the fandom for being far more superhero-y than the grim, broody, and hope-smothering event itself.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#136046: Oct 24th 2021 at 4:00:02 PM

Pretty much. Zemo's plan was, get the info, then find a way to get it to Tony, knowing how he'd react.

The fact that the airport battle happened, and the Avengers were already fracturing was just icing on the cake, that ensured that exactly the right people (Bucky, who was guilty, Tony, who'd want revenge, and Steve, who would protect Bucky above all else) were all in the same place.

Like, I'm betting he was laughing to himself over how well things were going. He very likely had a few more steps for getting the video to Tony, maybe arranging to make sure Bucky was right there at the time (as it would be crucial that Tony react in the heat of the moment, rather than having time to think about it), but then the exact three people he needed walked right into lap without him needing to do anything more.

Well, ok, he did send the info to Tony specifically, though he would still have to anticipate that no one else would (Ross) or could (every other member of both teams) be there to help.

Still, most of what happened was luck, but he'd probably had something in mind in the event that things went a little differently. His plan was pretty flexible as it was.

One Strip! One Strip!
eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#136047: Oct 24th 2021 at 4:02:28 PM

Besides Zemo went with revealing everythin in Siberia cause he got info on how the figth in the airport went (is not hard to believe he had an informant or something)

Had the figth went diferently, he could just stealth his way out with the video and reveal it to Tony in a better time, or depending on who got to Siberia, let out the super soldiers as distractions while he gets away with the video.

Lex Luthor had everything in his hand without any of the heroes having any idea and he still went with an idiotic and convoluted plan that he had nonway of having any control of how it went.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#136048: Oct 24th 2021 at 4:05:55 PM

Technically it's the Tinkerer (of all people) using nanites to fuck with Nick Fury that's the main villain.

Also following up on the reaction of the Eternals, I think this is gonna end up as a pretty badly divisive film from the gist of the rviews (I'm expecting it to land at aroun 60something at the RT). The gist so far seems to be "ambitious but flawed, good character drama restricted by the Marvel formula".

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#136049: Oct 24th 2021 at 4:11:24 PM

[up] Which is ironic, because people keep saying it really pushes against the formula as a whole. The critical reaction suggests otherwise.

In regards to Guardians 2's potential alternate idea, yeah I agree the Committee sucks. But to the film's credit, it was advertised as though Ego was going to be a nice friendly guy, and that the Sovereign would be the bad guys, which I honestly wouldn't be too upset about. But what we got was infinitely better.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#136050: Oct 24th 2021 at 4:12:37 PM

Luthor's plan got more convoluted because he basically had four plans going on at once:

1. Kill Superman by tricking him into fighting Batman by feeding him news that Batman is evil.

2. Kill Superman by kidnapping his mom and blackmailing him into fighting Batman.

3. Kill Superman by discrediting him publicly so Batman will want to kill him, something Bruce already wants to do ever since Metropolis.

4. Also kill Superman by creating an unholy abomination monster that may end up destroying the Earth.

At least Zemo just stuck to one plan and then improvised.

On Ego, I think he's one of the MCU's best villains, but I wasn't too surprised by the twist that he was evil since Yondu said in Guardians 1 that he was a "jackass" and Quill has already had a bad dad in the comics.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 24th 2021 at 4:15:10 AM


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