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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#135901: Oct 21st 2021 at 12:43:26 PM

I would have liked to have seen Strange just take Vision and use the time stone to hide them in 4000BCE or something.

Doesn't stop Thanos killing everyone by hand with his four stones, but would be a chill storyline for the two of them.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#135902: Oct 21st 2021 at 12:47:19 PM

[up] Wouldn't that break reality though? If they accidentally cause any paradoxes, it could be like Strange Supreme's reality...

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#135903: Oct 21st 2021 at 1:03:56 PM

Blaming Steve for the Avengers' loss in Infinity War is... an interesting take.

Personally I blame Thanos.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#135904: Oct 21st 2021 at 1:07:02 PM

I blame Burt.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#135905: Oct 21st 2021 at 1:08:38 PM

Vormir is the most direct point of comparison. Thanos cruelly murders Gamora. As a result, he grieves, he gets the Soul Gem, and then he achieves his goals and wins. Natasha sacrifices herself for the Avengers. The Avengers grieve, they get the Soul Gem, and then they achieve their goals and win. The outcomes are exactly the same despite one method allegedly being superior to the other.

The "alleged" is only the entire context and motivations of both scenarios, before, during, and after. And of course you lose those if you boil it all down to numbers and a bullet-point sequence of events, and in the process paint Thanos as more virtuous than he is (even taking to account other criticisms made of him being accidentally painted as more virtuous than he should be).

Sure, he weeps...just long enough for Gamora to realize he's gonna yeet her off the cliff. And he does indeed drag and chuck her over - he even Reality Stone's her knife to make sure she doesn't off herself beforehand. He pauses with the Soul Stone in hand and he still thinks of her, but at the end of the day her death is worth his mission. Meanwhile, Hawkeye and Nat spend a while trying to come up with alternatives and draw blanks, both realize the only option they have left, both immediately volunteer themselves first, and they literally scuffle over which one gets to sacrifice themselves. Hawkeye returns with Soul Stone in hand but completely defeated, the Avengers all mope and grieve over why she had to die, Hulk chucks a bench, and Cap declares that now they have to succeed or else her death's in vain. Even at the end Hulk says he tried to bring her back and would've if he could've.

At no point are Gamora's and Nat's deaths supposed to be good things. Nat's is a desperation play that is treated by the Avengers as a failure they have to avenge, and Gamora's is a cruel blood sacrifice by Thanos because "Some of you may die but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make" is his literal life-goals. So when Vision offers to kill himself to grant the Mind Stone it's rejected not only because no one there actually wants to kill him but once they sync up with Wakanda it becomes seemingly needless to do so. At that point killing Vision is no longer allowing him to make a noble sacrifice, it's a blood offering paid to save themselves. It becomes the easy route.

Edited by Watchtower on Oct 21st 2021 at 4:10:08 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#135906: Oct 21st 2021 at 1:13:34 PM

Yes! Yes!

This is the key thing. They need to destroy the stone in order to stop Thanos.

They don't actually need to destroy Vision. It's just that until they can remove the stone, the only way to destroy it is to destroy Vision with it.

Killing Vision with the stone when they don't need to is just cruel.

Maybe in hindsight, doing so would have been better, but they had no way to know that.

One Strip! One Strip!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#135907: Oct 21st 2021 at 1:17:44 PM

Bruce knew Thanos could teleport. He could pop in at any time. Every second the Avengers took with the Mind Stone still around was a second with no guarantee of more.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135908: Oct 21st 2021 at 1:24:17 PM

The idea of a World War Hulk movie is rather weird since that sorta requires Planet Hulk as a set-up.

Though man would the the MCU be hilariously screwed against Green Scar Hulk. Guess Carol will take Sentry’s place as the hero that can equalize Hulk.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#135909: Oct 21st 2021 at 1:29:41 PM

And after Endgame, Planet Hulk would itself need something to set up how Hulk went from Tony the Radioactive Tiger to The Boogeyman on Earth again.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 21st 2021 at 1:29:48 AM

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#135910: Oct 21st 2021 at 1:33:00 PM

A WWH movie would definitely need to take some liberties, but the MCU isn't exactly a stranger to that — hell, it could be an In Name Only thing like AOU.

I'd say there are three likely scenarios for why he could go on a rampage:

  • The Leader is controlling him.
  • It's actually Ross as Red Hulk framing him.
  • We delve into more of Bruce's DiD, maybe have Devil Hulk or Green Scar show up as a side effect of him merging personas. Hell, why not make the Maestro a personality?

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#135911: Oct 21st 2021 at 1:55:32 PM

Hell, World War Hulk could be less about Bruce going on a rampage, and more about him having to take his Hulk personality / powers seriously if there are other monsters for him to fight out there. Personally, Red Hulk, Abomination or some other people could be worth investigating.

It would also be cool if WWH connected to whatever Val's agenda is, although that seems unlikely.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#135912: Oct 21st 2021 at 3:10:56 PM

[up]×2

Green Scar is supposed to be one of the more heroic Hulk alters. I can see Devil Hulk or Maestro working.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#135913: Oct 21st 2021 at 3:16:35 PM

[up] Is he? Dunno. More anti-heroic, in my opinion. Regardless of motivation, he did beat up a lot of people on Earth and put slave discs on them, including his own cousin. Forcing people to fight each other also isn't really that heroic.

But what he did to the X-Men (children, mostly) was by far the worst, as Xavier didn't even vote on his exile.

Edited by Forenperser on Oct 21st 2021 at 12:17:45 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#135914: Oct 21st 2021 at 3:20:48 PM

Speaking of comic book wars, looks like Captain America: Civil War was going to have a significantly different outcome per Creative Committee meddling? Could you imagine this shit being what we got?

Also, apparently Alan Horn retired. Didn't know that.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Oct 21st 2021 at 3:20:59 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135915: Oct 21st 2021 at 3:21:44 PM

[up][up] Well he was on a revenge quest and came to believe that the heroes of Earth are responsible for the deaths of his wife and people.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#135916: Oct 21st 2021 at 3:24:18 PM

Fitting. A civil war about Civil War.

Okey Dokey!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#135917: Oct 21st 2021 at 3:25:08 PM

I mean the Illuminati, I can understand, but not all these other heroes, and particularly not the X-Men, who had nothing to do with his exile whatsoever and whom he attacked when they were just suffering the aftershocks of several of their students being murdered by Purifiers and under the flimsiest of guilt by association justification on top of that.

Anyways, my point was, he was not really "heroic" in the classical sense. Sympathetic perhaps, but his actions were that of a classical Anti-Hero.

Edited by Forenperser on Oct 21st 2021 at 12:30:34 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135918: Oct 21st 2021 at 3:27:48 PM

Granted the Hulk did back-off from the X-Men after he found out what they were going through.

Even the Hulk can be merciful.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#135919: Oct 21st 2021 at 3:28:59 PM

The fact that the heroes angry with Tony and Reed over the whole Civil War mess didn't just hand them over was surprising.

Wake me up at your own risk.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#135920: Oct 21st 2021 at 4:06:49 PM

Speaking of comic book wars, looks like Captain America: Civil War was going to have a significantly different outcome per Creative Committee meddling? Could you imagine this shit being what we got?

For those who didn't read the article, apparently the original plan the Creative Committee wanted was to have the film end with the Avengers reuniting by fighting Zemo and a bunch of super-soldiers on a sub, and no dramatic showdown between Tony and Steve.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Oct 21st 2021 at 7:07:14 AM

jdeo1997 BLADE Pathfinders from Orion–Cygnus Arm Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
BLADE Pathfinders
#135921: Oct 21st 2021 at 4:12:13 PM

Wow, that sounds so... boring

Attachments are not the problem, Indifference is. Keelah se'lai
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#135922: Oct 21st 2021 at 4:13:42 PM

I mean, Zemo always seemed to be tertiary to the main emotional conflict of the movie anyway.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#135923: Oct 21st 2021 at 4:16:21 PM

Actually fighting Zemo would be more in line with the comics where he's an actual threat they have to face instead of being a manipulator in the movie

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#135924: Oct 21st 2021 at 4:25:58 PM

You can't exactly have a movie that says "Civil War" and then just have the two sides instantly make up with little conflict. That would be shitty advertising.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#135925: Oct 21st 2021 at 5:10:46 PM

I feel like if the rest of Team Cap's crew hadn't been captured and made it to Siberia with him and Bucky, made Zemo would've woken up the other Winter Soldiers and tried using them as fodder. Then again, Wanda would've probably taken them all out effortlessly, considering she was able to hex Thor as a complete novice witch.

(Sidenote, there's a part of me that still feels Wanda should've made it to Siberia with Cap and Bucky, if only for a couple reasons: 1) she's Sokovian, like Zemo, and had similar motives in Age of Ultron to targeting the Avengers to what Zemo is currently doing, 2) it was her mishap in Lagos that led to the UN pushing the Accords, 3) she's ex-HYDRA like Bucky and 4) she probably could empathize with Tony about the whole "watching your parents die" thing and maybe make some attempt to reason with him, and some other reasons)

Edited by dmcreif on Oct 21st 2021 at 8:11:00 AM

Okey Dokey!

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