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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135651: Oct 17th 2021 at 12:03:59 AM

Just watched Black Widow (after A YEAR AND A HALF WAIT). Really good, really enjoyed it. Great family dynamic, maybe the darkest exploration of themes in the entire MCU, and I actually enjoyed Scarlet Johansson's acting. Dreykov was deliciously evil, I loved that his punches barely even hurt Nat. I really thought Taskmaster would be Nat's mom (either Melina or her actual mom), did not expect her to be Dreykov's daughter. I disagree with the idea I've seen that this somehow "ruins" Taskmaster. Like, we literally don't know what her actual personality is, she could be exactly the same as comics-Taskmaster now that her brainwashing is gone, you don't know.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#135652: Oct 17th 2021 at 12:29:54 AM

I dunno, man. Even putting aside how much of an Ass Pull it would be to suddenly bring current Taskmaster in line with her comics counterpart personality-wise, that wouldn't make this film's version of her retroactively better. Black Widow Taskmaster would still be diet Winter Soldier with little non-trailer screentime and an underutilized powerset even if later films course-correct all that.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Oct 17th 2021 at 3:32:02 PM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135653: Oct 17th 2021 at 1:16:47 AM

Why would it be an Ass Pull? We don't see any personality from her one way or the other while she's brainwashed, actually just like Winter Soldier in his introductory movie, who got not personality until later movies. And just like Pierce in Winter Soldier, Draykov was the main villain of Black Widow, not Taskmaster. Taskmaster seems very obviously like a character set up to appear in future installments of the MCU later on, I'd be shocked if we didn't see her again.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135654: Oct 17th 2021 at 1:21:45 AM

Ya know I think a good comparison of execution to Taskmaster would be Wenwu from Shang-Chi. Similarly a martial artist with a flashy style of combat.

The difference between that Wenwu got plenty of opportunities to show off his powers in good detail with excellent fight choreography. Plus his final battle with Shang actually felt climactic with a brutal melee compared to Taskmaster who was pretty much an anti-climax boss and whose choreography outright devolved into generic boring super-strength over the course of the movie.

[up] Well Winter Soldier actually got awesome fight scenes throughout the movie and his final battle with Steve was an epic exchange. So Tasky not being the main villain isn't really a good excuse for how lackluster she turned out.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 17th 2021 at 1:23:59 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135655: Oct 17th 2021 at 2:10:07 AM

I thought Taskmaster fighting Aleksei with Captain America's fighting style was really cool.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#135656: Oct 17th 2021 at 2:44:50 AM

I don't think taskmaster's powerset is particularly interesting to look at. The 3D printer on their back which prints custom weapons was flipping cool, but just seeing Taskmaster do Bucky's, T'challas and Spidey's moves is kind of un satisfying, at least without Taskmaster and their opponent gossiping about the people they're immigrating.

If Taskmaster becomes a braggart in their next appearance then they'll be more interesting.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#135657: Oct 17th 2021 at 2:51:41 AM

Especially in how he effectively ruined the lives of both his parents who due to their immortality have to forever live with the knowledge that they sired the worst being who ever existed in the universe all while being locked in an isolation prison cell upon the fear that they could produce another Thanos, willing or not.

A'Lars' punishment was even worse since his cell's walls were high resolution screens. Each time Thanos took a life, a single pixel would light up.

By the end of his first week there the walls were emitting enough light to blind him.

Edited by M84 on Oct 17th 2021 at 5:52:40 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135658: Oct 17th 2021 at 2:54:35 AM

[up][up][up] I don’t think she was using Captain America’s fighting style against him. She appeared to just be ragdolling him with a formless style as if she’s just using brute super-strength. Like she appeared to be actually physically overpowering him somehow.

[up] Bonus on Sui-San telling him she wishes neither of them to never exist, him being locked away forever cause they can’t risk it despite no longer believing in his original cause, and Zuras leaving him a message ended with him essentially saying “I told you so.”

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 17th 2021 at 2:56:24 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135659: Oct 17th 2021 at 3:15:15 AM

What? No, she was clearly punching him in the face using the edge of the shield, in a way that exactly replicates Captain America doing that same thing in previous movies. She used the Avenger's fighting styles all throughout the movie.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 17th 2021 at 3:16:58 AM

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#135660: Oct 17th 2021 at 4:57:36 AM

Plus muh comic accurate powers and look people want Tony Masters. I think they should do two versions to please both.

Edited by Mizerous on Oct 17th 2021 at 8:05:48 AM

Just Makima.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135661: Oct 17th 2021 at 5:29:06 AM

What's wrong with her powers, and why can't she just act like the same character? We literally don't know a single thing about her personality, after Black Widow, she could be like "man, these powers are rad, I'm gonna go become a mercenary-for-hire and use them for profit and fun". Like, why not? It's really obvious the writers aren't just done with her here, they're going to bring her back.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135662: Oct 17th 2021 at 5:33:06 AM

It would have been amusing if after being cured of her brainwashing that she still continued fighting because no she still hates Nat with all her heart and soul. Just because she hates her father for what he did to her doesn't she doesn't also despise Nat for her responsibility in making her life a living Hell.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#135663: Oct 17th 2021 at 5:41:18 AM

Yeah, I personally hope she goes out there and becomes a merc. Taskmaster's always been one of those characters who works best when he's dancing back and forth across the line as a professional adversary/ally. Sometimes he's shooting up your guys. Sometimes he's training them. Nothing personal; just business.

I agree with PMC that they could totally go that direction with MCU Taskmaster. The filmmakers left that door open for anyone who wants to use her that way. But I also do agree with the criticism that this film treats her as Winter Soldier Mk.2 rather than the snarky merc that Taskmaster's fans are familiar with.

Marvel, in general, has become very comfortable with the phrase, "Maybe next movie." They have been for years, in many contexts. But, as is often the case, it's a cold comfort for people who wanted to see the thing they were pitched in this movie. Fans of Taskmaster wanted to see Taskmaster in the movie that threw Taskmaster into all its trailers. And right now, there isn't even a concrete definition of what "next movie" would even be.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 17th 2021 at 5:45:52 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135664: Oct 17th 2021 at 5:55:00 AM

Taskmaster is really just a red herring, with the main plot focusing on Draykov and the Red Room. Similar to how the Winter Soldier was just a red herring for Pierce and Hydra. There really are a lot of parallels between the two movies, and that only makes me more sure than ever that Taskmaster is destined to return later on.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#135665: Oct 17th 2021 at 6:01:44 AM

Yeah, but she's a Red Herring who featured heavily in the trailers. So did the Winter Soldier, but the difference is that the cold, silent, merciless depiction felt more accurate to him than it does for Taskmaster. Taskmaster is a loud, rambunctious goofball of a character. That's why Black Widow's treatment has also drawn comparison to X-Men Origins: Wolverine's treatment of Deadpool: Because sewing her mouth shut makes sense for the story being sold, but feels wrong for the character being used.

The movie promised Taskmaster and did not deliver. It gave us Taskmaster's powerset, it gave us some really cool fights using Taskmaster's photographic reflexes, but it didn't give us Taskmaster's personality. And Taskmaster fans have a right to be disappointed in that.

And another key difference is that Winter Soldier ended with the promise that there would be more to come from Steve and Bucky. Black Widow ends with the opposite. Natasha Will Not Return. There isn't going to be another movie. Nat's been cancelled from the MCU forever. So that leaves Taskmaster just floating in character limbo, where another writer might pick her up if they want to, but with no actual promises of any future appearances.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135666: Oct 17th 2021 at 6:02:26 AM

Again unlike Tasky Winter Soldier was actually used prominent in his movie. He was the dragon to Pearce and had lots of screen time and impressive fight sequences. Its an entire field of execution between Tasky and Bucky.

I do hope Tasky's actress gets a suit that actually allows her to portray the character. Poor gal did not get to play the character at all barring one scene where she just stands silently and another short scene at the end to just get her ass kicked by Nat, really the stunt actor is the true actor of Tasky as a result.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 17th 2021 at 6:06:25 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135667: Oct 17th 2021 at 6:10:02 AM

Honestly, I was nowhere near as in-love with Winter Soldier as everyone else was, and I seem to have enjoyed the Taskmaster bits of Black Widow more than others. If we're just comparing the two characters as they are used in both of those movies with no further context, I'd say they're about equal. Both have many great fights throughout the movie and the final battle with both is kinda meh.

Seriously, I don't get the praise for Winter Soldier's final battle, Steve and Bucky aren't even fighting each other most of the time, they're just clumsily scrambling for a flash drive or something like that.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 17th 2021 at 6:12:20 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#135668: Oct 17th 2021 at 6:19:54 AM

I will say that I don't get the criticism of Taskmaster's fights. I was pretty satisfied with seeing her photographic reflexes translated onto the screen. Sure, she didn't call out, "This is that punch from Spider-Man: Homecoming! And this is the kick that Steve did in Captain America: Civil War!" But the homages to different characters (including Nat herself) were there if you watched for them.

That's kind of the thing about Tasky's powerset: it's not flashy and in your face like a lot of powers. It's embedded purely in fight choreography, so it can be difficult to tell the difference between "Taskmaster is fighting like Steve" versus "Taskmaster is fighting". But I saw a lot of familiar moves, weapons, and styles coming out of her, so I was satisfied on that front.

It's just the erasure of Tasky's personality that was the problem. Unlike Bucky, Taskmaster isn't supposed to be a brainwashed vacuum of personality who silently and mercilessly stalks their prey, so depicting her like that feels wrong.

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MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#135669: Oct 17th 2021 at 6:23:19 AM

Its the emotional stakes of the fight that makes Winter Soldier work where Taskmaster doesn't.

Yes, Bucky is brainwashed for a good portion of the movie. But after his second close encounter with Steve we can see that the shock is affecting his brainwashing.

Bucky is definitely compromised in the final fight.

Also, it's not really a fight. Steve is struggling to complete his mission, and stands off Bucky who is there to stop him, but he doesn't want to fight him.

And there's pay off in that Steve breaks through and Bucky ends up saving Steve in the end.

And then sets off to find himself, showing the audience there's actually more in store for him going forward.

Taskmaster doesn't really have any of that.

Her identity is revealed in the last act, she doesn't struggle with her brainwashing, she doesn't display any kind of emotion towards Nat, her brainwashing is undone via macguffin and that's really the end of the character.

She leaves the movie with the rest of the widows and god knows if she'll ever return and what she will be like if she ever does.

The one that the movie promises more of at the end is Yelena.

Bucky benefits from being a former character, having ties to the protagonist, and showing the start of an arc.

Antonia has none of that. She is important to Natasha because of what she represents, but they don't have anything beyond that. It's a completely one sided dynamic.

Edited by MrSeyker on Oct 17th 2021 at 6:39:28 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#135670: Oct 17th 2021 at 6:31:30 AM

She's a Punchy Lamp.

And, again, it's a plot point that she's a Punchy Lamp. The fact that the villains treat her as a Punchy Lamp is a big ol' Heinousness Cookie for Dreykov. But it does leave the film's most marketable villain as a Punchy Lamp - and, unlike, Bucky, there's never a point where she's able to break free of her conditioning and make a choice for herself. She just gets cured and that's that. Bucky leaves his film having reclaimed his agency, but Antonia leaves hers still a Punchy Lamp.

Personally, I think I would have liked the film better if she wasn't Dreykov's daughter. I don't think there was really a pressing need for the big Moral Event Horizon moment from him that she provided. I think the Red Room was already Moral Event Horizon enough. The story gains nothing of value by this connection between the characters - but Taskmaster lost something significant in the process.

I'd have liked Taskmaster better if she just worked there. Training the Red Room girls and doing jobs for Dreykov 'cause the pay is good. That would have felt true to character. In fact, it kind of blows my mind that they had a story about training girls to be deadly assassins, a character known for training new generations of supervillains, and did not connect those two.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 17th 2021 at 6:33:42 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135671: Oct 17th 2021 at 6:34:45 AM

Taskmaster's issue is that the entire change to her character is derived from making her "personal" to Nat. She couldn't just be someone who works there and trains the Widow, they uprooted the entire character because they felt the Dragon has to have some kind of personal connection with the hero regardless of whether it works or not.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135672: Oct 17th 2021 at 6:36:42 AM

Well, whatever. I just wanted to mention it because it had to be mentioned, I wasn't expecting it to spiral into this big discussion. I want to talk about the parts of the movie that I loved and a bunch of other people seemed to love too: the family dynamic. That dinner scene? Amazing. Stunning. Beautiful. Love that the trailer joke of "you got fat" was actually a twist with the movie joke being "you got fat, but you've still got it you sexy man you", and then Natasha and Yelena immediately start gagging. That's great. The intro (after the escape from America scene) is also AMAZINGLY dark and horrifying, compressing years of childhood torture into a montage that is easily the darkest thing in the entire MCU. I also loved Yelena's squeemish descriptions of the "involuntary hysterectomy". This movie easily came the closest to an R-Rating in the whole MCU, and I dunno how they got away with some of that shit.

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#135673: Oct 17th 2021 at 6:52:11 AM

Oh yeah. The entire movie is supported by Nat and her family.

I got issues with Taskmaster and I feel they went way overboard ramping up the action in the third act.

But Yelena, Alexei and Melina were great. I kinda wish the story was more about them ultimately.

Since Yelena will return, I hope we get to see more of the family when she does. If nothing else to get an update about where they are today.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#135674: Oct 17th 2021 at 6:54:45 AM

[up][up][up]

     Spoilers 
She could have still had a personal connection with Nat even if they made her a professional. She could have been the person who trained Nat.

  • Antonia: (puts away weapons) Well. GG and all that. See you around.
  • Nat: Wait, what?!
  • Antonia: You turned my boss into goo, so we're done here. Great fight!
  • Nat: Are you serious?! You destroyed my life. You destroyed so many people's lives. And for what?
  • Antonia: Have you seen my penthouse? It's enormous!
  • Nat: What?!
  • Antonia: Wow, you're taking this all so seriously. This just how the game is played. When someone has money, the talent will follow.
  • Nat: You're a monster.
  • Antonia: It was nothing personal.
  • Nat: It was personal to me.
  • Antonia: Well, that's your problem. We done here? I need to cash my last paycheck before the press finds Dreykov's goopy remains. Tell your sister I said that was a sweet trick with the helicopter. I look forward to using it.

I think, in general, that the MCU suffers from a dearth of Punch-Clock Villains. There was Batroc, but The Falcon and the Winter Soldier decided he needed to be wrapped up, so they had him suddenly get ambitious and stupid. Taskmaster could still fill that void; it all depends on where they go with her from here, if they ever use her again.

But yes, the stuff about Nat and her family was pretty great. Yelena was fantastic and stole the movie every time she was onscreen. Alexei was also a lot more fun than I expected him to be. The only one I really didn't like was the mom, because she's presented as being just as complicit in all this Red Room stuff as Dreykov but nobody actually seems bothered by that. Like, she made the brainwashing chemical and even defends its use, but she's still treated like "Oh, lol, that wacky mom of ours!"

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#135675: Oct 17th 2021 at 7:18:45 AM

[up]Honestly I felt that way about both the parents. Like, Alexi is a little harder to parse out because he was likely thrown in jail for no reason, and he's a lot more jovial and I'm sure nothing he did was as horrible as Melina helping to develop actual mind control, but. Based on stuff like him saying how proud he is of how many people Yelena and Natasha have killed, and he's just such a casually arrogant blowhard, that like. He's funny, yeah, he's actually hilarious. But he's still pretty horrible people.

So it's kind of weird and adds to the lack of satisfaction of the ending for me that he and Melina both get to skip away happily at the end because "they feel REALLY bad about all the horrible stuff they did guys, promise" and because they were important to Yelena and I guess also Natasha?

Ultimately I guess that's one of the bigger problems for me. The family dynamic is 100% fun, and it's nice to watch, but it feels like the whole thing is wrapped up a little too quickly to address the fact that there's actually some pretty horrifying implications underneath.


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