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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#135551: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:10:22 AM

[up][up]

Aren't Ultimate Reed's powers also more versatile than the 616 version? Like, he can boost his intelligence by stretching his brain cells.

It's possible that 616 Reed can do that too — but he doesn't think of doing that because he still fundamentally thinks of himself as human.

Edited by M84 on Oct 15th 2021 at 5:11:57 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135552: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:20:15 AM

Granted Thor at least has the benefit of a hammer with no worthy requirement. So its a far more practical and useful weapon than the actual Mjolnir.

I dunno if that's really an upside. Thor's been known to use Mjolnir's worthiness clause for some pretty fun stuff, mostly pinning people down so they can't move.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#135553: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:23:44 AM

MCU Stormbreaker notably doesn't have a worthiness clause. And that actually causes a bit of trouble for Thor since it means Thanos is able to lift it too and he tried to kill Thor with it.

Edited by M84 on Oct 15th 2021 at 5:23:59 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135554: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:24:18 AM

True but at the same time the hammer can be so fickle about whether Thor is worthy or not it sometimes becomes borderlines useless.

As it turns out never have low self-esteem near Mjolnir. The hammer hates that shit, if you have a low opinion of yourself then the hammer will consider you a worthless piece of shit.

Its a very mean hammer. Not sure if Odin's personality imprinted on the thing but its a straight-up 100% dick.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 15th 2021 at 2:25:15 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#135555: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:30:32 AM

It's possible that 616 Reed can do that too — but he doesn't think of doing that because he still fundamentally thinks of himself as human.

How do you mean?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135556: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:30:43 AM

It's like the ultimate way to end Let's You and Him Fight scenarios. Either Thor pins you down and you can't move or fight back so it ends the fight, or you're able to lift Mjolnir, which means you're a good guy anyway and it ends the fight.

[up][up]Maybe in the comics, but that hasn't happened once in the MCU after Thor became worthy. Even in Endgame, where he feared he had lost his worthiness, he hadn't.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 15th 2021 at 2:31:06 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135557: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:32:11 AM

MCU Mjolnir was a damn fine hammer.

Shame it got destroyed, poor thing.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 15th 2021 at 2:32:44 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#135558: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:33:59 AM

[up][up][up]The idea is that 616 Reed Richards would never even think of performing such dangerous modifications to his own brain because he doesn't want to risk changing who he is as a person and risk losing his humanity.

But The Maker? He doesn't really give a shit about his humanity anymore.

One of the really important character traits of Reed Richards is that he's this close to being a Mad Scientist. But he ultimately avoids crossing that line because there are still things he cares more about than super science. Things like his personal connections and emotional attachments.

This is why so many of his villains are Mad Scientists who lack this essential humanity — The Mad Thinker, The Wizard, Mole Man, Doctor Doom, etc. They are living examples of all of the ways Reed Richards is not a Mad Scientist.

The Maker is the ultimate (heh) embodiment of this, since he is a Reed Richards who decided all of those pesky emotional connections don't mean jack shit. 616 Reed Richards is of course utterly appalled by The Maker as a result.

Edited by M84 on Oct 15th 2021 at 5:39:50 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#135559: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:40:05 AM

Yeah, and the Maker manages to be worse than all of these gentlemen combined.

I mean, Doom seems like a stand-up guy next to this loony.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135560: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:42:35 AM

Personally, I'm expecting Love And Thunder to finally pull the trigger on that "Thor becomes unworthy" thing. My prediction for the plot:

  • Jane reforges Mjolnir and learns that she's worthy, gaining the powers of Thor. Thor checks and Mjolnir still regards him worthy.

  • Then Gorr shows up and beats up Thor, breaking his spirit, something he says makes Thor unworthy. Jane tries to fight him, but she's not strong enough alone. Being unworthy actually makes Thor lose his powers, similar to in Thor 1 (being worthy and grabbing Mjolnir gives you Thor's powers, but just being unworthy to hold the hammer makes you lose them).

  • The movie ends with Thor getting his spirit and worthiness back and defeating Gorr and whatever mean thing he said as a team alongside Jane-Thor and Valkyrie.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 15th 2021 at 2:44:11 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#135561: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:43:31 AM

[up][up]Not after the events of his own 2019 miniseries he doesn't.

What Doom did at the end of that comic makes everything The Maker has done so far pale in comparison.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135562: Oct 15th 2021 at 2:59:53 AM

[up][up] I do hope that Jane isn't portrayed as just better than Thor, like she's an instant expert who automatically takes to and uses his power far better than he did. That rather suck especially after all the shit Thor went through these several movies.

Hopefully its more of an equal thing between the 2.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#135563: Oct 15th 2021 at 3:16:26 AM

[up][up] Just looked it up, and yeah sounds bad, but didn't the Maker destroy several universes though, during/before Secret Wars (offscreen, but still)?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#135564: Oct 15th 2021 at 3:19:00 AM

About the Venom talk: Isn't he an actual hero in the comics at the moment, and has been for quite a while? I mean, in 2018, just in time for the film, the symbiote and Spider-Man actually bonded temporally to fight a large threat, and basically buried the hatchet.

Honestly, well intentioned Venom who doesn't fully grasp human ethics is better than corrupter maneater Venom; we have a highly serviceable Carnage for that angle.

And, in any case, Go Down Swinging is an arc that would work damn fine if adapted, as a finale of both goblin and symbiote-related shenanigans.

FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#135565: Oct 15th 2021 at 3:19:26 AM

Yeah I'd rather not have Thor be unworthy again. How many times does he have to go through that plot?

Also, if Thor was smart he'd get a similar enchantment for Stormbreaker... But rather than only the "worthy" being able to wield it, it's only Thor and Thor-approved users. Basically the same features minus the whole getting moody and not letting you use it thing.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#135566: Oct 15th 2021 at 3:19:49 AM

[up][up][up]It's not just that Doom destroyed a universe. It's the motivation behind it and the method.

The only way Doom could use the Ultimate Nullifier to destroy a universe would be by fully comprehending the sheer magnitude of what he was doing. He had to really grasp the reality of murdering countless trillions of lives.

And he did it in the blink of an eye without a shred of remorse or regret. Just because that universe's Doom befriended Reed Richards.

No wonder Death called him her greatest servant.

Edited by M84 on Oct 15th 2021 at 6:22:51 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#135567: Oct 15th 2021 at 3:22:50 AM

iirc Venom's been a hero for most of his existence now in comics? At least long enough for that old Spider-Man game to have one of the friendlier, if still kinda mean, Venoms around.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135568: Oct 15th 2021 at 3:23:30 AM

Pretty much, the symbiote itself has also become a fully realized character and is able to communicate on equal grounds with its hosts, most prominently becoming sort of the love of Flash and then Eddie's life when they get back together.

Contrast to the shows where its either just a mindless monster and a wholly evil alien invader.

[up] Though there have been fully evil hosts. Scorpion was the primary host of the symbiote for the majority of the 2000s, even becoming a straight up cannibal due to its influence. This was before Flash got it and became Agent Venom, turning it around into a more moral figure to the point the symbiote became disgusted when it connected to a sociopath like Lee Price.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 15th 2021 at 3:25:38 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#135569: Oct 15th 2021 at 3:25:20 AM

Venom's gradual transition to a less villainous character is precisely why Carnage was created. Carnage both highlighted Venom's Character Development by being a Foil and filled the void Venom left behind.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#135570: Oct 15th 2021 at 3:29:56 AM

Heh, funny how the Scorpion was the original "Spider-Man but bigger and stronger" villain, yet never actually was a big threat because of how much of an oaf Gargan is...

Edited by Eriorguez on Oct 15th 2021 at 12:30:07 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135571: Oct 15th 2021 at 3:36:38 AM

As Peter once said "A loser with a Venom symbiote is still a loser".

Really my main issue here is just the shows poor treatment of Venom and by extension Carnage. He's not a menacing or competent villain like in Spectacular or the 90's show, nor is there an attempt to adapt his more complex heroic characterizations.

No its just the shame symbiote invasion shit over and over again. He's crossover fodder, he's no longer a character anymore, just a vehicle to give Marvel heroes Venom skins. Its such a waste and highlights how Marvel is absolutely obsessed with merching the symbiotes to the same degree as Dragon Ball with Saiyans.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 15th 2021 at 3:37:45 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#135572: Oct 15th 2021 at 3:37:05 AM

TBH, quite a few of Spidey's villains ought to be more formidable given their powers but are limited due to being stupid crooks.

Edited by M84 on Oct 15th 2021 at 6:37:28 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#135573: Oct 15th 2021 at 4:10:20 AM

Electro f.e. pretty much borders on Physical God when he puts some effort into it.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#135574: Oct 15th 2021 at 4:12:00 AM

Sandman and Hydroman too for that matter. They're pretty much an earth elemental and a water elemental respectively.

Edited by M84 on Oct 15th 2021 at 7:13:34 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#135575: Oct 15th 2021 at 4:29:44 AM

Spidey's most dangerous and competent foes tend to be a lot lower on the super weight categories, Goblin, Doc Ock especially, later age Kingpin and even pre-heroic Venom can't compare in raw power to the elementals like Electro, Sandman and Hydroman and even Shocker at the top of his power levels. The former just have a better taste for villainy than the petty crooks.

I do wonder how the likes of Vulture, Rhino and Scorpion ever managed to keep up with comics Spidey.


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