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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#135176: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:27:42 PM

I guess you could make a sympathetic Annihlus.

His FE is that he's a very paranoid and constantly scared of every other thing that could kill him. Hence his decision to wipe out all life so he can be "safe". Mind you the comics play it more as him being a selfish narcissistic coward who's willing to go that far for his own. Hide.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135177: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:29:01 PM

Sounds similar to the main villain of Jojo Part 5.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#135178: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:31:51 PM

I don't think I'd be that cynical of Carnage's cinematic chances. He's as stupidly popular as Venom, he would've popped up eventually.

But yeah, under more traditional models Carnage doesn't happen this quickly. Because you need at least one movie to set up Venom before setting up Carnage, and you gotta have Spidey if you're gonna do Venom, right? Sony says no, we're gonna do whatever we want, we have enough money to do it and not enough sense to think it's a bad idea.

Silver & Black continues to wild me. We're gonna make a movie where Silver Sable and Black Cat team-up without a hint of Spider-Man? Why? Because fuck you, that's why.

And if the Venom movies' popularity proves anything it's that there just might be an audience for this. Some portion of the audience will cash in under the assumption that it will tie into the MCU at some point, another portion is geared to roll with literally anything as long as you give them "because comic books" as an excuse. Though we'll need to see with Morbius if that's something the general audience will actually extend to the entire stable or if it's literally just Venom that has this kind of cultural goodwill.

Edited by Watchtower on Oct 7th 2021 at 4:32:52 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#135179: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:33:02 PM

I’m pretty sure more people would wanna see symbiote stuff over seeing the fucking Jackal.

And plus Carnage has been done before it’s not hard. The main reason it’s a problem now with the movies is due to Sony keeping a lid on the Venom-related stuff away from Marvel.

It doesn't have to be literally Jackal. But after at least two films about symbiotes (one to set up the Black Suit and one for Venom), I don't think most people would be clamoring for a third Spider-Man movie to be dedicated to even more Venom. Of course, you could just do Black Suit and Venom in one movie like Spider-Man 3 did, but I don't know how many people who've seen that movie can endorse that approach.

Spider-Man has a significant rogues gallery chock full of characters who haven't gotten their turn in the sun yet. If you're just going to make every Spider-Man movie about building up and developing Venom, then you might as well just cut Spider-Man out and make Venom movies. People want to see Kraven. And the Hobgoblin. And Electro. And Sandman. And Shocker. And Doc Ock. And Rhino. And Tombstone. And Hammerhead. Etc. etc. Some of those have appeared, some haven't, but the point is that people want a variety of movies about Spider-Man fighting a variety of foes.

And since it takes 2-3 years just to make one movie, that means some stuff just isn't going to make the cut. Venom is a hard story to tell in the context of two-hour films released once every few years. You get that done, and then you move on to another villain because these aren't Venom movies about symbiotes doing symbiote things and fighting symbiote fights.

So no. No one would ever make a Spider-Man vs. Carnage movie, because the commitment required to reach that point is astronomical and would threaten to drive away an audience that misses when Spider-Man used to be about things other than symbiotes.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2021 at 1:35:02 AM

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135180: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:35:42 PM

Black Suit and Venom would have worked fine in one movie if they were the sole focus of the movie, instead of having to share so much screentime with so many other plotthreads.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135181: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:36:57 PM

It should also be noted that Raimi didn't want Venom in Spider-Man 3, it was an executive mandate on him.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#135182: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:38:11 PM

Yeah. It was supposed to be a two-part film which Honestly would have flowed way better. Thomas Church as Sandman really deserved an entire film on his own.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#135183: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:38:24 PM

If the Black Suit isn't sharing screentime with other plot threads, then what would it even do? Spider-Man needs something to actually be doing while wearing the Black Suit. The suit demands at least one other villain taking up screentime in the film.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2021 at 1:38:41 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135184: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:40:13 PM

Honestly the build-up approach is not longer a problem since the MCU has the resources. We're getting constant movies that steadily build upon each other.

So we can easily get a trilogy that say builds up the Goblin legacy and ends in Spider-Man facing Green Goblin or Hobgoblin.

A symbiote trilogy would actually be pretty feasible.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 7th 2021 at 1:40:50 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#135185: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:41:34 PM

Marvel Studios also doesn't seem to be all that interested regarding anything Venom-related, with mostly Sony seeming interested in having Venom cross over into the MCU. Because they really, really, really want Venom to fight Spider-Man again.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#135186: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:43:19 PM

Well the ending of Let there be carnage means that might come sooner then you think.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#135187: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:44:09 PM

[up] That is true. Will it be a success, or will it be an awkward shoehorn? We'll have to see.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#135188: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:44:17 PM

It's still a problem within a single franchise. Look at how upset people are with Iron Man "taking over" the Spider-Man movies. I mean, it's just two movies, right? Why is it a big deal that Iron Man is so important to just two Spider-Man movies?

Well, it's a big deal because those just two Spider-Man movies represent 100% of Spider-Man films that have been produced in the last seven years. Iron Man didn't just take over two movies; he took over seven years of content.

Everyone wants Spider-Man to fight Venom. But I don't think people really want seven years of Spider-Man fighting Venom to get to Carnage.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2021 at 1:44:39 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135189: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:47:16 PM

Venom actually is a Spider-Man character though.

With Iron Man its a case of character intruding on another character's franchise and hijacking it for himself.

With Venom it just be Spider-Man having an epic storyline with a character who is actually within his franchise similar to the Goblin family storyline that was a constant in all 3 of the Raimi movies.

Spider-Man 1 Peter fights Norman, 2 builds up Harry's abhorrence of Spider-Man, and 3 finally would have him challenge Peter as the New Goblin.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#135190: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:47:19 PM

Honestly, at this point the Black Suit storyline is to Spider-Man what Dark Phoenix is to the X-Men - it's just sooooo done to death, done by WAY too many different adaptations to be interesting anymore.

There are so many other interesting stories out there to adapt.

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#135191: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:48:44 PM

and more interesting Symbiots

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#135192: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:52:37 PM

“If the Black Suit isn't sharing screentime with other plot threads, then what would it even do? Spider-Man needs something to actually be doing while wearing the Black Suit. The suit demands at least one other villain taking up screentime in the film.”

Shocker

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#135193: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:55:16 PM

Also, what's the point of the symbiote suit in the MCU?

The symbiote suit was useful in the comics because it could: enhance Spidey's strength, was his first costume change ever, transform into civilian clothes, fight when Spider-Man couldn't (I can't remember if this one was in the comics or not), and make organic webs.

All of those but the last are things completely covered by, hell, just the Iron Spider suit. Like, the symbiote has nothing to offer Peter to justify shoehorning it into the MCU at this point. The only thing not covered by the Iron Spider suit is "organic webbing" and it's not like the symbiote couldn't still run out of webbing, it just meant Peter didn't have to bother making more... which given his current resources in the MCU he doesn't have to worry about.

Edited by Larkmarn on Oct 7th 2021 at 4:56:03 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#135194: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:58:11 PM

Honestly I never really saw a major difference between his normal suit and the Iron Spider suit.

Aside from I guess the spider-legs. Feels like something that can be easily surpassed.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 7th 2021 at 1:58:45 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#135195: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:58:20 PM

I did notice that Spidey movies tend to have an issue with too many villains for their "last" part. At least No Way Home might somewhat evade this since we kinda already know those guys, even if Peter doesn't.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#135196: Oct 7th 2021 at 1:58:58 PM

Point is, for every superhero, there are far too many villains to reasonably adapt to film. Writers have to pick and choose which stories get told and which ones don't. When there's like fifty villains to every one hero, that means that a lot of characters will never see the big screen. A lot of stories will never be told. There are other stories that the filmmakers creating those heroes' films are more interested in telling.

In 21 years of filmmaking, Spider-Man movies have barely even scratched the surface of Spider-Man's rogues list. And he's been rebooted twice. I hope you weren't an Iron Man villain waiting for your turn because hahahaha FUCK YOU. Even the goddamn Mandarin had to shoehorn his face into some other hero's film just to get a chance at the spotlight.

You want a Silver Sable movie? Too bad, we're doing Green Goblin. Come back in a few years when—oh, wait, nope. We're doing Doc Ock. Give it a few more years—nope, sorry. Sandman's turn.

But in this age of shared universes, you can divorce Silver Sable from Spider-Man and just make a Silver Sable movie. And then you don't have to wait for an opportunity for Spider-Man's slate to clear up.

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#135197: Oct 7th 2021 at 2:01:35 PM

Silver Sable has a lot going on that it’s honestly easy to pop out a spy story for her

And Black Cat has enough of a life outside of Spider-Man in fact like 98% of her life and her origin or whatever isn’t even tied into him that you can also just make a heist story for her

Pairing them is odd but they’ve both got a lot to work with

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Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#135198: Oct 7th 2021 at 2:01:44 PM

It doesn't have to be literally Jackal. But after at least two films about symbiotes (one to set up the Black Suit and one for Venom), I don't think most people would be clamoring for a third Spider-Man movie to be dedicated to even more Venom. Of course, you could just do Black Suit and Venom in one movie like Spider-Man 3 did, but I don't know how many people who've seen that movie can endorse that approach.

I've come to realize the Black Suit/Venom portion of Spider-Man 3 would've probably been received a lot better by 1) not casting Topher Grace and 2) not having the stupid meme dance. The movie would still have problems but criticism would probably laser in on the whole Harry Osborn plot vs. ping-ponging between the two.

But yeah, conceptually the idea is as solid as you can do within the confines of a single movie. The black suit doesn't need more time than that. Maybe you tease it the movie before just so to not get stuck with too much setup, but beyond that it's predominantly execution.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#135199: Oct 7th 2021 at 2:01:51 PM

If the Black Suit isn't sharing screentime with other plot threads, then what would it even do? Spider-Man needs something to actually be doing while wearing the Black Suit. The suit demands at least one other villain taking up screentime in the film.

Just have Spidey fight someone using the Black Suit, defeat them, and have them not show up again. The first half of the movie dedicated to Black Suit Spidey fighting this guy, the second half decided entirely to Venom.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#135200: Oct 7th 2021 at 2:04:17 PM

Man, all this talk about the black suit. So much black suit. When are we gonna get a rainbow Spider-suit?

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."

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