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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#134176: Sep 22nd 2021 at 3:18:34 PM

The movie makes it clear why he sympathies when he talks with Maria.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#134177: Sep 22nd 2021 at 5:42:03 PM

I think Tony thought they were friends

I don’t think it ever got past friendly vitriolic work buds for Steve by the point of Civil War

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#134178: Sep 22nd 2021 at 5:59:14 PM

Part of it's the nature of the movies each covering a fairly short stretch of time (often just a few days) with months or years in between. We can do little more than speculate how much time Tony and Steve spent together between films.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134179: Sep 22nd 2021 at 6:20:22 PM

For what it's worth, I can believe Steve being good friends and a Family of Choice with Natasha, Sam, Wanda, and the other members of Team Cap easily enough even with the lack of onscreen development. Just not so much with Tony. And I do think a lot of it comes down to issues with Whedon's writing. There's being Vitriolic Best Buds and Belligerent Sexual Tension, the latter of which seems to be what Whedon was hoping to accomplish based on some lampshaded Ho Yay, and a lot of fans ship the two because they read that sort of dynamic into their relationship (though I suspect a lot of it is just them projecting the two's dynamic from the comic books, which fits the bill betterMore fandom observations incoming ).

However IMO the way Whedon wrote their antagonism with each other went far beyond Vitriolic Best Buds into actual meanspiritedness at times. So there's a few ways we can take this. One is that the Russos intended us to take the line at face value even though the two being friends was an Informed Attribute, and that they hoped for us to ignore the way Whedon portrayed them, the same way the writers explicitly told us in interviews to ignore aspects of how Whedon also depicted Wanda in AOU. The other is that Tony is either being an Unreliable Narrator who overvalued his bond with Steve, or is just being spiteful about it.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 23rd 2021 at 3:29:54 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#134180: Sep 22nd 2021 at 6:21:53 PM

[up] Fair point, fair point. That's a good counterpoint.

Though now I have to wonder what Tony and Steve would do in their free time...

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#134181: Sep 22nd 2021 at 6:27:22 PM

I mean, I think even if you don't see them as friends, it's easy enough to take it that "So was I" is just a snappier response to "He's my friend" than "Regardless, I expected Captain freaking America of all people would have had the decency to tell me how my parents actually died". The latter feels a little unwieldy. tongue

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#134182: Sep 22nd 2021 at 6:43:01 PM

You can see some other changes between movies.

In Ao U it try to portray cap as soldier without a war who miss peggy and want to go back, it also is a intersting point that ultron being tony unfettered means tony probably also have the same opinion, meanwhile Civil war make cap less a blood knight and more someone with chronic hero syndrome: he have this thing of "I NEED to save people when they call me, sorry tony" on which tony find unberable arrogant(even rhodes agree and at some level I think even sam is aware of it), wheedon seen to be going for the a typical "lawfull good vs chaotic good" with cap and tony on which steve acuse tony to always do what he wants because he feel liked it while tony acused cap to wanting to pretend this is conventional war and just fight again, while civil war display the fight as pretty much a role reversal: tony is now demanding everyone to be control while cap is having the "may way or not way" with everyone.

So yeah, there was changed here and there in the dynamic between both.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#134183: Sep 22nd 2021 at 6:45:25 PM

[up][up][up] And it can't be the latter because it pretty much destroys the intended character arc for Tony if he's so egotistical to the point of self-delusion. Like, his whole thing is a cycle of self-destruction, him trying to better protect the world, fucking up, and having to fix it only to fuck up again, and whatever arc you're trying to work with that is derailed if he's actually so fucking lost he can't tell which way is up.

The idea, ultimately, is for Tony and Steve to be Fire-Forged Friends, two polar opposites who through internal and external conflict come to respect and even envy each other. It's just that Whedon is a hack who paints them overly-antagonistically because he literally does not know how to do better and by the time the Russos got to it they were already in gear to deconstruct it so the whole trope's left assumed.

Edited by Watchtower on Sep 22nd 2021 at 9:46:22 AM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#134184: Sep 22nd 2021 at 6:45:25 PM

Hey, off topic question regarding Variant Loki. Would you consider him listing him as appearing in Thor and The Avengers, or no? There seems to be a bit of conflict on his character page about that front. I personally don't believe it counts, which I went into more detail on for the edit reason on his character page.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#134185: Sep 22nd 2021 at 6:59:29 PM

Definitely not. Variant L1130 didn’t exist until Loki saw the dropped Tesseract and fled with it, causing the timeline to split.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 22nd 2021 at 6:59:45 AM

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#134186: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:05:47 PM

I personally hold that the main Loki and the Variant Loki were the same entity until Endgame split the two, so it's fair to list the Variant as being in Thor and Avengers as, technically, he was present in, and experienced, those films.

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134187: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:12:58 PM

For the sake of convenience, no. He's not a variant until Endgame happens. Just put a note that his life is identical to "regular" Loki up to that point if necessary, but I wouldn't list him as having been in those works.

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#134188: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:13:20 PM

Feels unnecessary to me. If we do it here, technically we'd have to do it for all the What If variants. Besides, as Tuckerscreator points out, this version didn't exist until Endgame; he's essentially a separate (if admittedly completely similar) version the Avengers ran into after traveling to another timeline.

Speaking of, once What If wraps up we really need to do something about all the variant folders. A good majority just list Alternate Self and one or two other tropes.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:15:12 AM

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#134189: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:14:47 PM

I'd also agree that Thor and Avengers don't count as appearances for Variant Loki. For all intents and purposes, the variant was Loki until the Avengers time-traveled in Endgame, at which point the timeline and his character both diverged.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#134190: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:20:27 PM

Back when I used to admin for a fan wiki, someone attempted to apply “retroactive appearances” to characters that were introduced in sequels but hadn’t been written yet as of the prior entry. Like if one said The Ancient One was in The Avengers because Endgame shows her in New York at the time. We shut that down because it would inevitably spiral out of control, to the point that a single shot of the galaxy would equal an appearance from every character in the series ever. This sounds edging similar to that, so I say don’t allow it.

jdeo1997 BLADE Pathfinders from Orion–Cygnus Arm Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
BLADE Pathfinders
#134191: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:26:00 PM

While you could technically make an argument for Variants appearing at so-and-so, issue is that so-and-so would be before their divergence, making it just redundant

Attachments are not the problem, Indifference is. Keelah se'lai
Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#134192: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:56:44 PM

Speaking of variants on MCU character sheets, why is Carol variant called "Party Thor's Captain Marvel"? Does she belong to Thor?

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#134193: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:59:31 PM

Yeah, that's been bothering me. I usually label their folders with "What If...? Episode _", unless there's a better description available (a la Frost Giant Loki).

jdeo1997 BLADE Pathfinders from Orion–Cygnus Arm Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
BLADE Pathfinders
#134194: Sep 22nd 2021 at 8:03:28 PM

We could call her Party Pooper Carol

Attachments are not the problem, Indifference is. Keelah se'lai
Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#134195: Sep 22nd 2021 at 8:05:09 PM

To be honest, I prefer the term "Party Thor's [X}" to describe the reality in question and who is the main focus.

Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#134196: Sep 22nd 2021 at 8:42:30 PM

I'd rather use "Carol from What If (episode X)" or "Jotun Loki from What If" tbh. "Party Thor's [X}" is just confusing.

I'd also state that the variant is from What If either in a subheader on the page above individual folders or right in the folder name for clarity.

Edited by Asherinka on Sep 22nd 2021 at 6:55:36 PM

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134197: Sep 22nd 2021 at 9:01:05 PM

Agreed that most What If versions don't really need their own folder. The trope itself can just reference the show in question if necessary.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#134198: Sep 22nd 2021 at 9:10:17 PM

[up] B-but...my Alternate Self descriptions! They'll be dust...

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#134199: Sep 22nd 2021 at 9:13:10 PM

Huh if Juggernaut ever gets brought over, you think they’ll actually use the Cyttorak origin for his power?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#134200: Sep 22nd 2021 at 9:18:33 PM

[up] It’d be cool, but I think a bit too complex to go into unless he’s a really major character.

[up][up] Will wait for the season to end before deleting any of them, but I think if the folders have 6 or less tropes (including Alternate Self) then they can be easily listed in a normal Alternate Self bullet in the character’s normal folder.


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