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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I think Tony thought they were friends
I don’t think it ever got past friendly vitriolic work buds for Steve by the point of Civil War
Forever liveblogging the AvengersFor what it's worth, I can believe Steve being good friends and a Family of Choice with Natasha, Sam, Wanda, and the other members of Team Cap easily enough even with the lack of onscreen development. Just not so much with Tony. And I do think a lot of it comes down to issues with Whedon's writing. There's being Vitriolic Best Buds and Belligerent Sexual Tension, the latter of which seems to be what Whedon was hoping to accomplish based on some lampshaded Ho Yay, and a lot of fans ship the two because they read that sort of dynamic into their relationship (though I suspect a lot of it is just them projecting the two's dynamic from the comic books, which fits the bill betterMore fandom observations incoming ).
However IMO the way Whedon wrote their antagonism with each other went far beyond Vitriolic Best Buds into actual meanspiritedness at times. So there's a few ways we can take this. One is that the Russos intended us to take the line at face value even though the two being friends was an Informed Attribute, and that they hoped for us to ignore the way Whedon portrayed them, the same way the writers explicitly told us in interviews to ignore aspects of how Whedon also depicted Wanda in AOU. The other is that Tony is either being an Unreliable Narrator who overvalued his bond with Steve, or is just being spiteful about it.
Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 23rd 2021 at 3:29:54 PM
I mean, I think even if you don't see them as friends, it's easy enough to take it that "So was I" is just a snappier response to "He's my friend" than "Regardless, I expected Captain freaking America of all people would have had the decency to tell me how my parents actually died". The latter feels a little unwieldy.
You can see some other changes between movies.
In Ao U it try to portray cap as soldier without a war who miss peggy and want to go back, it also is a intersting point that ultron being tony unfettered means tony probably also have the same opinion, meanwhile Civil war make cap less a blood knight and more someone with chronic hero syndrome: he have this thing of "I NEED to save people when they call me, sorry tony" on which tony find unberable arrogant(even rhodes agree and at some level I think even sam is aware of it), wheedon seen to be going for the a typical "lawfull good vs chaotic good" with cap and tony on which steve acuse tony to always do what he wants because he feel liked it while tony acused cap to wanting to pretend this is conventional war and just fight again, while civil war display the fight as pretty much a role reversal: tony is now demanding everyone to be control while cap is having the "may way or not way" with everyone.
So yeah, there was changed here and there in the dynamic between both.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"![]()
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And it can't be the latter because it pretty much destroys the intended character arc for Tony if he's so egotistical to the point of self-delusion. Like, his whole thing is a cycle of self-destruction, him trying to better protect the world, fucking up, and having to fix it only to fuck up again, and whatever arc you're trying to work with that is derailed if he's actually so fucking lost he can't tell which way is up.
The idea, ultimately, is for Tony and Steve to be Fire-Forged Friends, two polar opposites who through internal and external conflict come to respect and even envy each other. It's just that Whedon is a hack who paints them overly-antagonistically because he literally does not know how to do better and by the time the Russos got to it they were already in gear to deconstruct it so the whole trope's left assumed.
Edited by Watchtower on Sep 22nd 2021 at 9:46:22 AM
Hey, off topic question regarding Variant Loki. Would you consider him listing him as appearing in Thor and The Avengers, or no? There seems to be a bit of conflict on his character page about that front. I personally don't believe it counts, which I went into more detail on for the edit reason on his character page.
"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."I personally hold that the main Loki and the Variant Loki were the same entity until Endgame split the two, so it's fair to list the Variant as being in Thor and Avengers as, technically, he was present in, and experienced, those films.
Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks MarathonFeels unnecessary to me. If we do it here, technically we'd have to do it for all the What If variants. Besides, as Tuckerscreator points out, this version didn't exist until Endgame; he's essentially a separate (if admittedly completely similar) version the Avengers ran into after traveling to another timeline.
Speaking of, once What If wraps up we really need to do something about all the variant folders. A good majority just list Alternate Self and one or two other tropes.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:15:12 AM
Back when I used to admin for a fan wiki, someone attempted to apply “retroactive appearances” to characters that were introduced in sequels but hadn’t been written yet as of the prior entry. Like if one said The Ancient One was in The Avengers because Endgame shows her in New York at the time. We shut that down because it would inevitably spiral out of control, to the point that a single shot of the galaxy would equal an appearance from every character in the series ever. This sounds edging similar to that, so I say don’t allow it.
Speaking of variants on MCU character sheets, why is Carol variant called "Party Thor's Captain Marvel"? Does she belong to Thor?
We could call her Party Pooper Carol
Attachments are not the problem, Indifference is. Keelah se'laiI'd rather use "Carol from What If (episode X)" or "Jotun Loki from What If" tbh. "Party Thor's [X}" is just confusing.
I'd also state that the variant is from What If either in a subheader on the page above individual folders or right in the folder name for clarity.
Edited by Asherinka on Sep 22nd 2021 at 6:55:36 PM
Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
It’d be cool, but I think a bit too complex to go into unless he’s a really major character.
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Will wait for the season to end before deleting any of them, but I think if the folders have 6 or less tropes (including Alternate Self) then they can be easily listed in a normal Alternate Self bullet in the character’s normal folder.

The movie makes it clear why he sympathies when he talks with Maria.