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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

ryanasaurus0077 Since: Jul, 2009
#134126: Sep 21st 2021 at 9:03:45 PM

I removed Apocalypse Now from the Shout Out subpage for Iron Man because I've only seen mention of Tony Stark paraphrasing Kilgore's line about napalm in the morning on precisely two websites: This Very Wiki and the Internet Movie Database. And also on a Ranker list that doesn't even give me any info on where the line is spoken and likely got that info from one of the other two sites.

Edited by ryanasaurus0077 on Sep 21st 2021 at 12:09:27 PM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#134127: Sep 21st 2021 at 9:30:07 PM

I looked at a bunch of transcripts for Iron Man 1 and could not find the line either, so probably a good call.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#134128: Sep 21st 2021 at 9:43:55 PM

I've come to the feeling that if I could rewrite Civil War in general, I would put the focus more on Cap and those on his side of the Accords. The movie we got is more like "Avengers 2.5" or "Avengers: Civil War", because the movie gives Tony all the emotional beats, when the actual logic and integrity is with Steve. This is Steve's movie. There should be more focus on his issues than on Tony's daddy issues. So this means more focus on his team and all their relationships, with Bucky, with Sam, with Natasha, with Wanda, etc.

There's nothing wrong with ensemble casts, but in a Captain America movie, Cap needs to be the main character. And Captain America: The Winter Soldier managed to give Sam, Natasha, and even Fury fantastic roles and character development without hijacking the focus from Steve. Civil War felt like it was trying to be Captain America 3, Iron Man 4, Avengers 3, and origin stories for Spider-Man and Black Panther all rolled into one. Though this could be an illustration of the way character bloat occurred in Phase 3.

Edited by dmcreif on Sep 21st 2021 at 12:45:14 PM

Okey Dokey!
ryanasaurus0077 Since: Jul, 2009
#134129: Sep 21st 2021 at 9:48:42 PM

Also, what sort of Linux flavor would the Ten Rings be using for running brickOS on a Toshiba Tecra laptop from 1996? All I can make out is the C code in the background and the not-Windows and definitely-not-Mac interface in the background, along with Arabic text on the interface that I can't for the life of me transcribe.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#134130: Sep 21st 2021 at 9:49:31 PM

On whether Magneto will be revealed to have some kind of relation to Wanda. They could or they could not, who knows.

But it’s not something that’s been done before at least majorly. I mean sure Foxsilver is Magneto’s son but it never came up in the Foxmen to any major capacity. It’s not like the changes with Spider-Man where it was all done to avoid doing something that’s already been done in the previous movies.

It depends if they wanna give Wanda more stuff to do. For all we know they might not use Mags for a while in favor of focusing on another X-villain like say Mister Sinister.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
ryanasaurus0077 Since: Jul, 2009
#134131: Sep 21st 2021 at 9:56:28 PM

(BTW I retained First Blood because no less than the closing credits specifically mentions the poster appearing in the film. I just don't know where ATM.)

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#134132: Sep 21st 2021 at 10:51:31 PM

The movie we got is more like "Avengers 2.5" or "Avengers: Civil War", because the movie gives Tony all the emotional beats, when the actual logic and integrity is with Steve. This is Steve's movie. There should be more focus on his issues than on Tony's daddy issues.

Not endorsing this approach, but the reason why Tony gets so much emotional focus in a Captain America movie is because the directors wanted a film that had viewers divided between supporting Tony or Steve, and this cut of the film was the one that evenly split the test audience between both sides. For better or worse, an ensemble plot was the goal.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#134133: Sep 21st 2021 at 10:54:48 PM

It's all a cascade effect from Age of Ultron. I do think Civil War would have been better as just an Avenger movie between AOU and the infinity duology and Cap got a unrelated own third film.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#134134: Sep 21st 2021 at 11:47:51 PM

Yeah, I suspect that the filmmakers' motivation for Steve's ending was rooted in the simple fact that both Robert Downey Jr. and Chris Evans planned to leave once Endgame finished. Either Steve or Tony could do the big sacrifice scene, but they can't both do it. This is kind of a caveat to a big shared universe like this. There's never a point where it's done. Ant-Man can't defeat Yellowjacket, then hang up his suit because, like, it's over. The big scary thing was a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence, it's finished, and the world will never be imperiled like this again. He can just go have a normal life now. No, in the superhero shared universe, there's always another Big Scary lurking around the next corner. It's hard to retire characters. What, Captain America's going to turn on the evening news, see that Mephisto has eaten half the souls of North America, then shrug and go, "Ehhhh, not my problem anymore?" We've established so many times that he'll put down the shield when he's too dead to lift it anymore, so how do we now write him putting down the shield?

The MCU, unlike the comics, is not going to last forever. So they absolutely can retire characters.


I don't think MCU Hawkeye really has that much of a fanbase, to be honest. Black Widow had a following of female fans eager to see Marvel's First Female Superhero finally get a chance to shine who felt spurned by the decision to kill her off. But how many people can really say that Jeremy Renner's Hawkeye is the guy, the one guy they absolutely could not go without in all the MCU?

You have to remember that online discussions do not reflect the majority. According to online discussions, no one liked Captain Marvel and the MCU should have ended after Endgame.


I assume Clint and Nat’s popularity also has to stem from them being the teams Badass Normals since those characters always have the most obnoxious fans.

I haven't seen any obnoxiousness from Clint and Natasha fans. Batman fans can get insufferable but they aren't the rule for badass normals.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#134135: Sep 21st 2021 at 11:55:53 PM

Re: The Avengers and "found family".

I find that people can get pretty obnoxious about this trope at times as it feels like anyone outside the found family is an intruder and a potential threat (I find this to be very common among people who hate Clint's family, some of whom are also Clintasha shippers). Ironically, these people often end up being just as extreme as those who insist the traditional nuclear family is the only type of family allowed to exist.

This isn't even getting into the fact that some of the Avengers had relationships and family outside the team and the Avengers' family dynamic was more of an Informed Attribute than anything else. To me, the complaint about Endgame "rejecting found family comes across as people championing for a dynamic that never existed in the first place.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#134136: Sep 22nd 2021 at 4:24:27 AM

and this cut of the film was the one that evenly split the test audience between both sides. For better or worse, an ensemble plot was the goal.

I feel like if more focus was put on Cap's side of the debate, there'd be more room to address the problems with the Accords (the extrajudicial kill orders, the lack of due process and the human rights violations against enhanced individuals). In the actual movie, neither Steve nor anyone on Team Cap are allowed to give a voice to the reasons for their objections in detail, the way they did for the pro-Accords side. I feel like the movie literally had to underplay all the points against the Accords and only portray them subtly (as in, not explicitly pointed out in the dialogue), and I imagine that it's partly because if Team Cap got to point out the major flaws (namely, that they're not oversight, they're control), it would be too obvious how wrong those in support of the Accords were.

To give an example of what this would entail, when Tony is bringing up Charlie Spencer's death to guilt-trip the other Avengers, I would have Wanda fire back and be like, "And what about my brother? What about Pietro, Mr. Stark? Remember him? My brother, who died fighting with us? Do you not care about his death? His sacrifice? Why does this American's death matter, but my brother's death means nothing to you, or for that matter any of the other Sokovians that Ultron killed or tried to kill?" I feel like Wanda would find it insulting that so much weight is being given to Charlie Spencer's death while her brother's death is ignored.

Or have Steve bring up the fact that back in Iron Man 2, when the US government tried to make Tony turn over the Iron Man technology to them, Tony refused and likened it to indentured servitude or prostitution, which is basically what the Accords are. Or have him point out how Senator Stern (who chaired that senate subcommittee) was a member of HYDRA, so what's to say that HYDRA wouldn't be influencing the UN panel that decides where the Avengers will and won't be deployed?

I find that people can get pretty obnoxious about this trope at times as it feels like anyone outside the found family is an intruder and a potential threat (I find this to be very common among people who hate Clint's family, some of whom are also Clintasha shippers). Ironically, these people often end up being just as extreme as those who insist the traditional nuclear family is the only type of family allowed to exist.

This isn't even getting into the fact that some of the Avengers had relationships and family outside the team and the Avengers' family dynamic was more of an Informed Attribute than anything else. To me, the complaint about Endgame "rejecting found family comes across as people championing for a dynamic that never existed in the first place.

Honestly, the Guardians of the Galaxy (and maybe, to a degree, the Ravagers) are the ones who fit the description of "found family" moreso than the Avengers.

Edited by dmcreif on Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:25:58 AM

Okey Dokey!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#134137: Sep 22nd 2021 at 4:33:02 AM

One issue with the idea that the Avengers were a "found family" is that they didn't come together on their own. They were forced to work together as a team by Nick Fury.

The Guardians of the Galaxy by contrast started out barely able to stand each other and were brought together through sheer circumstance. Then they stuck together and became a Family of Choice.

The Avengers don't stick together after the mission is done — they just go back to their actual lives. Heck, they don't even live together in a mansion the way the first Avengers teams in the comics did.

Edited by M84 on Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:33:46 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#134138: Sep 22nd 2021 at 4:35:32 AM

Yeah, the Avengers never really put as much focus on the whole Family theme, unlike the X-Men or the Fantastic Four.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#134139: Sep 22nd 2021 at 4:46:20 AM

The Guardians practically lived together on Quill's ship (the Milano and then the Benatar).

And when it comes to "found family," I feel like Quill would also see the Ravagers this way. Yondu was his true father figure even if Yondu didn't want to admit it, and Kraglin was like the responsible brother who feels his parent lets his sibling get away with everything.

The Avengers don't stick together after the mission is done — they just go back to their actual lives. Heck, they don't even live together in a mansion the way the first Avengers teams in the comics did.

The only Avengers who really "lived together" were the ones who lived in the Avengers Compound for that year between Age of Ultron and Civil War, which entailed Sam, Wanda, Vision, Steve and Natasha, and they probably saw themselves as more of a military unit (akin to the Howling Commandos) than "found family".

Edited by dmcreif on Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:58:10 AM

Okey Dokey!
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#134140: Sep 22nd 2021 at 5:43:46 AM

IIRC the reason “Avengers found family” exploded as a concept was two scenes from the first movie: their fond goodbye scene and Tony redesigning Stark Tower for each member, implying they would all live together and be BF Fs.

I also think that implication was bolstered by the existing ensemble superhero media at the time actually being found family, eg. the Teen Titans cartoon. (FF are pretty much 3 related people and some guy, so more “family” than most. [lol])

But of course in the end we barely even saw these people be friends, except for Team Cap.

Rorian Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Halfway to Pon Farr
Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine
#134141: Sep 22nd 2021 at 5:59:08 AM

To be fair Tony and Rhodes are friends, even if it mostly showes in the Iron Man movies.

Cupcakes are coming, Darling!!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#134142: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:24:09 AM

The Avengers are really more of a day job. Sometimes writers will try to put a "Family" focus on them, but it never really feels right. They're more like colleagues; especially with the way the roster changes dramatically year after year. People frequently rotate in and out of the Avengers in a way you don't typically see in the Fantastic Four or X-Men.

You can legitimately say things like, "Yeah, last year I founded Avengers International, but I transferred to Avengers Dark after a few months because they needed me more. I'm between gigs at the moment, but next year I'll be joining Newer Avengers, the New version of New Avengers.

It's an organization moreso than a family, complete with a lot of mobility. We sometimes even get to see characters selecting Avengers to tap in for their branches, like an HR department sifting through resumes.

In this regard, I think the MCU has done a decent job capturing the idea of the Avengers as a workplace.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:28:25 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#134143: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:36:12 AM

Maybe that’s the case post Disassembled but it hasn’t been my experience in the older stuff

And of course it varies by character but for people like Scarlet Witch and Vision, the Avengers definitely were their real family

When people say Bendis broke the Avengers, this is often what they mean

Edited by Bocaj on Sep 22nd 2021 at 10:37:53 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#134144: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:40:31 AM

Why does every team need to be a family anyway?

The Avengers being a group of individuals who respect each other and are friends but don't really hang out unless on the job is more interesting and representative of their whole deal.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#134145: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:42:49 AM

[up]x8 What extrajudicial kill orders?

You and I remember Budapest very differently
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#134146: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:43:42 AM

I don't think the Accords take too much away from Cap, mostly because Civil War isn't really about the Accords. The Accords are more a catalyst for what's going on.

At its core, Captain America Civil War is an "agent goes rogue" movie. Cap wants to do a thing he thinks is right, but - uh oh - the law says he can't do it, so he goes against the law to do what he thinks is right while his former friends hunt him down.

The Accords are the excuse for why Tony and co are fighting him, and Tony is the primary antagonist of the film, but Cap's goal in the film isn't to fight the Accords: it's, at all times, to save Bucky, with the film's emotional core being over whether it's right for Cap to choose the relationship that's been built up over the three films even as the rest of his life is burning down.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#134147: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:49:46 AM

[up][up][up] Evolving True Companions into a Family of Choice is both really in vogue and is just really easy to do: if you have a group of friends that are stick to each other like family then why does it have to be like family? Y'all are tight, embrace being tight.

Like people joke about F&F and "F A M I L Y" and all that but that's probably just the most concentrated version of a much larger societal sentiment. Both in how closely-knit Dom's "family" is and in how he continues to obtain more "family" members via Defeat Means Friendship like fucking Nanoha.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#134148: Sep 22nd 2021 at 7:52:06 AM

When you have characters that work together for decades and live together it just kinda happens

Although it was the kooky quartet that really kicked it off. They’re the ones that moved into the mansion full time and hung out with each other all the time because they had nothing else going on

The Defenders can be the team that’s just the job

Edited by Bocaj on Sep 22nd 2021 at 10:52:21 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#134149: Sep 22nd 2021 at 8:06:20 AM

Go the Secret Defenders route of Dr. Strange recruiting random heroes for one-off stories and it literally is just "the job". Strange pulls up, force-hires them into a mission, then drops them back home and fucks off.

Meanwhile I'd argue Avengers especially after the Kooky Quartet really did have something of at least a brotherhood if not surrogate family aspect, on account of them being a membership club bunking in the Stark Mansion. It's ironically only been recently, with Marvel media trying to reconcile the "spec-ops strike force" aspect from the Ultimates that inspired the MCU Avengers, that that notion's felt weaker.

Edited by Watchtower on Sep 22nd 2021 at 11:09:13 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#134150: Sep 22nd 2021 at 8:10:12 AM

And the Ultimates were definitely not a family.

During Bruce's funeral they regarded Bruce calling them his friends and family profoundly depressing.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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