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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
He became fantastic in Age of Ultron, with the secret family turning him into Team Dad.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:39:02 AM
I've never met super fans, but plenty of people that wish the movies had actually done more with him. Plenty are looking forward to the Disney+ series.
Again, this is all about what circles you visit. Just like I never really see people complaining about Steve's ending despite there existing people that did not like it, there's people out there that do like Hawkeye (myself included) even if people clown on him a lot (specially seems to be the case here most of the time).
Edited by MrSeyker on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:42:36 AM
Of all the major deaths in Infinity War/Endgame, Tony's is the one I would want to see changed the least. I honestly don't think you could just replace him with Steve and then have it all still work. Steve's Snap wouldn't be half as meaningful.
As much as Thanos is everybody's enemy, he has a personal nemesis dynamic with Tony. From Iron Man 3 through Age of Ultron and Civil War, Thanos has been the bogeyman that's haunted Tony's sleepless nights. From the moment the world found out that aliens exist, thwarting Thanos has been Tony Stark's life's work. Everything he's done has been with one eye on the sky.
He didn't know Thanos's name or his face or what he was about, but he always knew he was there, and that he was coming back. The final confrontation between Tony, specifically, and Thanos is something that the MCU had been building up to for years.
Steve's been a more general-purpose superhero. To him, Thanos was a villain to be defeated. He never got caught up in particulars and just put faith in the idea that if it happens, they'll wing something. But for Tony, Thanos was what it was all about. Thanos was endgame, and being ready for his arrival was the ultimate goal for the Avengers to pursue.
If someone had to give their life to finally end Thanos, it should rightly have been Tony. His entire character arc was about bringing him to this moment. No other character can say that. And what a moment it was.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I never understood why Hawkeye got clowned on but not Black Widow. He's at least got a really cool trick weapon. She's got tasers, sometimes, and darts, occasionally, and batons, maybe. She always seemed much less useful to the Avengers than he was. Plus, Renner's performance is much better than Johansson's, who they could have written out or replaced in any given movie she was in and I wouldn't have missed her.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:47:27 AM
I think Stan's shown he understands Bucky a lot better than arguably anyone who's written for Bucky, and that extends to the writers on The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
Age of Ultron was really Clint's movie to shine, given that he doesn't spend most of the movie brainwashed, which was something that Jeremy Renner wasn't happy about during The Avengers. They lampshade this when he shocks Wanda with the taser arrow before she can use her illusions on him, saying "I've done the whole mind control thing. Not a fan."
With how Elizabeth Olsen killed it in WandaVision, I feel Wanda deserved more screentime in Age of Ultron and Civil War. I would make some slight changes like the following:
- Age of Ultron:
- Restore that deleted scene of her chiding Pietro for giving away a stolen skimpy dress on the streets.
- Add a new scene as Cap, Wanda and Pietro fly from Seoul to New York, where they relate over being experimented on to help their countrymen. (The prelude comic for the movie establishes that the twins volunteered for Strucker's experiments because they wanted to fight their oppressors in Sokovia, which probably included Echo Scorpion, the death squad that Zemo was a member of. Steve compared this to Erskine's experiments earlier in the movie when Maria Hill was giving him a rundown on the twins)
- Have Wanda or Pietro contribute a bit more dialogue during the discussion after Vision's birth beyond her moment of flirting with him, where she mentions that Ultron wants to wipe out the human race.
- Add a bit with Vision realizing Wanda hadn't made it off the rock and diving off the lifeboat Steve was on so he can go rescue her.
- Add a scene of Wanda being comforted by Clint and Steve when Vision deposits her on the helicarrier.
- Change the mid-credits scene. The scene of Thanos putting on the Gauntlet should've been in Guardians of the Galaxy, while the one in Age of Ultron should've set up Civil War. In my scene, Wanda and Vision visit the memorial in Sokovia (that we see in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier) and Wanda lays flowers at Pietro's grave. It's been a few months since Ultron (and this is after the "What is grief, if not love persevering?" talk in WandaVision). While they're there, they interact with Zemo, and Wanda empathizes with him when he mentions losing his family in Novi Grad. She mentions the Avengers' part in it during their talk. It's after Wanda and Vision leave that we see the names of Zemo's dead family members on the memorial, and the gears turning in Zemo's head as he begins planning his revenge.
- Civil War:
- Instead of Tony interning Wanda at the Avengers Compound with Vision as her jailer, Wanda and Vision travel with Steve and Sam to Peggy's funeral, and are part of the operation in Bucharest to bring in Bucky. When they fight the police who have shoot on sight orders, there's several moments where Wanda uses her illusions to disorient the cops or Vision is able to use his immunity to damage to get up close and disarm them.
- When T'Challa joins the fight, Wanda engages him as he tries to go after Bucky, given that the media are condemning her for the deaths of the Wakandans in Lagos and that's what prompted T'Chaka to push for the Accords (although T'Chaka had an ulterior motive in wanting to reinforce Wakanda's isolationism).
- While in custody at the JCTC, Wanda gets to interact with T'Challa and talk about Lagos. They have a talk about what it's like to be spurred by revenge. This is a big deal since Wanda was motivated by revenge against Tony when she and Pietro allied with Ultron, but abandoned her revenge when she saw what Ultron really wanted to do. T'Challa is still hellbent on his revenge. I think I've mentioned before that Wanda would provide a nice contrast to Zemo, T'Challa and Tony, since she's someone who gave up on revenge even when others wouldn't (given Tony's murderbot did kill Pietro).
- Given the post-credits scene I created for Age of Ultron, Wanda recognizes Zemo when he turns up impersonating the doctor sent to analyze Bucky. Unfortunately, she's not able to stop him from getting away due to Zemo activating Bucky's Winter Soldier programming to attack her and Steve, but she does read his thoughts long enough to know where he's going. Wanda is able use her thought-reading to verify that Bucky isn't brainwashed when Bucky brings up the details of Steve's mother to prove he's back to himself.
- Vision's arc sees him start the movie as pro-Accords, like in canon, but over the course of the story, as he sees the ways Bucky is being treated (the shoot on sight orders, being denied counsel), he realizes Steve has a point that the powers behind the Accords want to control them for their agendas—and so he's anti-Accords in the airport fight.
- Wanda and Vision manage to get away with Steve and Bucky on the quinjet after the airport fight, rather than Wanda getting captured as a result of Rhodey using that sonic cannon on her. When Tony turns up at the HYDRA base in Siberia, we get a three on one fight as Tony tries to kill Bucky while Steve and Wanda try to stop Tony. Vision helps T'Challa capture Zemo.
I'm surprised Hawkeye would have a fanbase cuz, personally, I've seen nothing but people dunking on him within the MCU. Lots of people criticized his portrayal in Endgame and I've not seen many people view Jeremy Renner with positivity (and this moves beyond the movies into other stuff I'm not completely in the loop about).
Mind, Scarlet Johannson isn't viewed positively either for multiple reasons (chief among them being the whitewashing controversy) but I've seen more people view Black Widow as being a good character who was screwed over by bad writing from Whedon and the Russos.
I do think Natasha had her fair share of uses in non-combat situations, as TWS (where she was best written) proved. Not all fights can be won through sluggery alone. Leadership, cleverness, connections, intelligence, backhanded tactics, those are all useful skills in a well-written conflict.
I also think her acting in TWS was pretty decent, or at least the approach worked to her strengths much better there than usual, though I think that's because Johannson and Evans have a lot of chemistry due to being friends IRL.
Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 21st 2021 at 6:10:49 AM
Okay, this might be an unpopular opinion, but I honestly don't really mind how Steve and Tony ended up at the end of the Infinity Saga. Mostly because they're just...not my favorite characters? Really, none of the main Avengers really peaked my interest when I was younger, since I was mostly invested in Fox's X-Men movies at the time.
I mean, I don't hate them, and it's sad to see them gone forever, but I'm more invested in the new "generation" of heroes for the Multiverse Saga. Ant-Man, Captain Marvel, Moon Knight, Shang-Chi, Doctor Strange, those guys have my attention, and I'm a lot more invested in them.
I do understand some people's frustrations, some rightfully so. But in truth, I'm glad both characters are gone to allow for the new characters to shine. Maybe it's a generation thing, or maybe I'm weird. But that's how I feel.
Edited by MatthewWayne on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:56:23 AM
"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."Of course Tony’s actions have actively been counter productive to the goal of fighting Thanos as well. From creating Ultron to supporting the Accords which the red tape would have allowed Thanos to do as he wants more easily, which Tony even did with his selfish “I know better than anyone else” to defeat Thanos that Thanos himself has always engaged in..
Which makes it even more meaningful for his character when he does the snap and puts his trust in Stranges belief there was one timeline to beat Thanos, and that meant even sacrificing himself once he realized exactly how things would play out.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:59:58 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.@dmcreif
Yes to a lot of those Age of Ultron ideas, absolutely not to the Civil War ones. It's important for the story to have Wanda and Vision on opposing sides, both for balance issues since both are among the strongest characters present, and for the sake of drama and conflict between the two to be patched up later. And ABSOLUTELY NOT on adding Wanda to the final battle between Steve and Bucky vs Tony, she is not Captain America, she does not belong in the climax of his movie.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:58:05 AM
I don't think you're wrong. To half of the people watching these movies, she was the only representation they had in the beginning.
To a white man looking to himself represented in a character, Avengers gave you Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, and Motherfucking Thor. You could also be Clint Barton but, like, why would you?
But if you were a woman, you were Nat. You only got to be Nat. It didn't matter if she wasn't the most exciting superhero or if she didn't have very cool powers. There weren't any other choices. Either you are Nat or you do not have a place in this franchise; that is what Avengers 1 said to women.
So a lot of women became attached to Nat. Later movies would let them be Wanda or Carol or Hope, but Nat was the one who'd been there from the beginning, and she was still the one that was important. She meant something very different to the fandom than Clint did.
Personally, I find the question, "Should Nat or Clint have died on Vormir?" to be ultimately flawed. Nobody should have died on Vormir. Planet Refrigerator, a place that exists only to kill women so that male characters can be sad for five minutes, is the worst idea ever written into the MCU.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.![]()
I also agree that Wanda and Vision should have some conflict between them. Otherwise, their genuinely sweet relationship that started rocky but solidifies in its tragedy feels more like Strangled by the Red String.
Edited by MatthewWayne on Sep 21st 2021 at 3:00:54 AM
"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."And during that five year timeskip, Tony also created Project Insight 3.0 (aka "EDITH").
Yeah, if anyone's really to blame for Thanos winning, it's Tony by deciding to take the fight to Thanos. If they'd turned the ship around, Thanos would never have gotten the Time Stone. Once Thanos had the Time Stone, he'd won, and anything the heroes threw at him after that would only slow him down by a few minutes tops.
I mean, I get it. Steve and Tony were the emotional core of the story in Civil War, and Bucky was the catalyst. The writers didn't consider having other Avengers factoring in the final battle because they would have been noise distracting from Tony seeking personal vengeance against the man Steve would do anything to protect. Emotionally and cinematically speaking, it had to be those three alone.
But I do keep thinking that a lot of fallout would be avoided had Steve turned up in Siberia with more than just Bucky. This would include Wanda at the bare minimum because of how the fight played out. We see Sam, Clint and Scott offer to play bait in order for the others to escape and deal with Zemo and the super soldiers. Wanda didn't intend to play bait, and this is clear from the fact that she's right on Steve and Bucky's tail as they run for the hangar. Unfortunately she doesn't make it because she's forced to stop about halfway there to hold up the radio control tower that Vision cut down, and then Rhodey used his sonic cannon to disorient her and make her drop the rubble. Wanda at minimum was not planning on staying behind and acting as a distraction while Steve and Bucky ran. She was following them to the jet. And this makes sense, because if you’re up against five uncontrollable Winter Soldiers, and you need to pick one of the Avengers to dispatch them in the fastest way possible and with the least amount of collateral, you would use Wanda, since she took out all the Avengers but Tony and Clint in one fell swoop during the shipyard fight.
My other idea of how to rewrite this is that Wanda, Clint, Sam and Scott knock out Tony, T'Challa and the airport cops who come to take them in and steal another plane to follow Steve and Bucky to Siberia and Tony gets to Siberia by following that plane.
Okey Dokey!I assume Clint and Nat’s popularity also has to stem from them being the teams Badass Normals since those characters always have the most obnoxious fans.
It’s like reading My Hero Academia and there’s always this annoying minority of dumbfuck constantly complaining that Deku or anyone isn’t a quirkless hero showing up the superpowered heroes.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."I don't really see why anyone thinks Steve went back because he was nostalgic for 50s values or whatever. He didn't. He went back for Peggy, that's all. Hell, if anything I'd think he'd do what he can to fix some of the issues the US had at the time, especially with his foreknowledge of future events. He isn't the type to let innocent people suffer for the sake of the timeline.
I know people like to joke about how he'd just awkwardly ignore stuff like Vietnam or 9/11 (and there's that amusing Warp Zone sketch about it), but the fact is that that is not something he would do. It wouldn't surprise me if he became a famous activist in his later years and actively campaigned for a better future based on his own knowledge of history.
Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks MarathonBut I do keep thinking that a lot of fallout would be avoided had Steve turned up in Siberia with more than just Bucky.
This is true, but the point of the movie is to end on the tragedy of a broken relationship, you don't WANT to avoid the fallout. The fallout is good for the story. Sometimes, a happy ending is best, but sometimes, a sad ending is best.
And put me down as someone who wants an entire What If episode dedicated to Steve living in his new timeline with Peggy.
Yeah, if anyone's really to blame for Thanos winning, it's Tony by deciding to take the fight to Thanos. If they'd turned the ship around, Thanos would never have gotten the Time Stone. Once Thanos had the Time Stone, he'd won, and anything the heroes threw at him after that would only slow him down by a few minutes tops.
I agree with this. It was a massive mistake on Tony's part to try and tackle Thanos directly, especially since he'd been moments away from just calling Steve anyway. Like, he should have immediately turned around and went back to Earth.
The entire thing with Starlord wouldn't have even happened if he'd done that....then again, maybe they would have lost anyway if he made that choice. It's hard to say. Like, when Strange checked every timeline, did he go back to earlier points from before they landed on Titan, or did he just base his search on that particular point in time.
One Strip! One Strip!If Tony never delivered the Time Stone to Thanos, and Gamora went to Nidavellir with Thor, Groot and Rocket instead of with Quill, Mantis and Drax to Knowhere, Titan never happens.
Edited by dmcreif on Sep 21st 2021 at 7:14:13 AM
Okey Dokey!Not even that. They all should have stayed together (the Guardians that is).
I mean, I can see why getting to the Collector first seemed important, but it might have been better for them to go with Thor to get Stormbreaker.
Quill was even saying they shouldn't be splitting up, but he and Thor were too busy butting heads (a fight Quill lost and badly) to consider that.
One Strip! One Strip!

No, I've seen a lot of fans of Renner's Hawkeye, specifically. Including a lot of people who hadn't even heard of Hawkeye before the films.
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