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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#134051: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:51:20 PM

I like Tony's and Loki's death. Natasha's, Vision's and especially Gamora's are just too vicious for me. Heindells feels like a waste. I like the mechanics of Steve's departure, and I'm not against the sentiment of it, just not that Bucky is a side thought in it.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134052: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:53:15 PM

For folks who want to know more about the bee I have in my bonnet regarding Endgame's handling of Peggy, have this piece that also talks about it from the perspective of someone who does like the Steve/Peggy romance quite a lot and might've accepted the ending had it been done in a way that wasn't so full of Unfortunate Implications.

There's another good article that talks about the way Steve's storyline in particular pushes a lot of bizarre implications regarding the supposed superiority of the 50s picket fence husband and wife with 2.4 kids narrative, but the link seems to be dead now.

This one doesn't focus entirely on Steve's ending, but it has am also-dead link to one that did, and it does go into some of the issues it created in a broader thematic sense.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 21st 2021 at 7:44:04 AM

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#134054: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:55:05 PM

I probably would have loved Steve's ending if he had taken Bucky with him, and we saw the both of them as old men on the bench. However they probably didn't want to retire Bucky's character at that point.

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#134055: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:56:27 PM

I get the Bucky complain, I really do. But Bucky is not a character they are retiring, there's still story that they want to tell with him, including the man out of time angle that Steve left behind.

Also, I REALLY question the assertion that Steve was moving on from his past life. Adapting, absolutely, he's making strides all through the movies.

But the melancholy is always present through his arc, and he most certainly wasn't moving on cosidering he STILL had hardly a life outside of Avenging at Infinity War, much less after the blip, where the character feels stuck in place and can only find confort in helping survivors.

The decision at the end is completely informed by the characterization Steve had so far. It's just in opposition to the people that wanted him to move on.

Which is valid, if not for the fact that they need to retire the character deffinitevely at the end of Endgame.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134056: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:57:02 PM

I do know Sebastian Stan himself was pretty upset about Steve's ending and how it was handled, and has made jabs at the Russos over it.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#134057: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:57:57 PM

I've never liked Scarlet Johansson's flat, wooden acting and always thought Natasha was boring and useless, so I was surprised by how perfect her send-off in Endgame was. Her arc in Endgame about not being able to let go of how things used to be alongside Steve was interesting and compelling and she went out actually accomplishing her goal.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:01:03 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#134058: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:59:35 PM

And I still think it would've suited Cap's "Man out of Time" Arc much better to have sacrificed himself against Thanos and just let Tony retire in peace to raise his damn, cute daughter tongue

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#134059: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:01:03 PM

I honestly never liked Nat that much to begin with so anything with her tends to bring a meh out of me.

Its a Goddamn shame that she got stuck as the only allowed female Avenger instead of someone more interesting.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#134060: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:02:41 PM

Scarlet Witch was instantly much more interesting and compelling to me than Black Widow, and Wandavision is the perfect show that I wanted her to get ever since her introduction. Wanda is easily my favorite female character in the MCU, while Natasha doesn't even break the top 10.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:03:31 AM

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#134061: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:03:11 PM

[up][up][up] That would've been the ideal route, I think, but there's three issues that I can already see.

Firstly, it still runs counter to what Steve's arc seemed to be according to detractors of this current ending. AOU presents the idea that Steve can't define himself outside of combat, that he will always continue fighting. So writing him off with a death in combat is it's own can of worms.

Secondly, there was no way in hell that the weren't going to give TONY FRICKING STARK the big victory moment.

Thirdly, any ending where Tony is still around at the end of Endgame would've resulted in a lot of pressure from fans and honestly from themselves not to use him in the future.

Edited by MrSeyker on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:06:50 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#134062: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:04:24 PM

Steve dies. Tony retires. Sam inherits the shield as part of Steve's will, and honestly you wouldn't have to change much concerning Sam feeling he's not up to being the new Cap, while nothing really changes regarding John Walker.

Okey Dokey!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134063: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:05:38 PM

The thing about all the people who point to AOU as the justification for Steve in Endgame, is that it doesn't really seem supported by his solo movies. It's an Alternative Character Interpretation, coming from a guy who exhibited flagrant disregard for continuity and characterization throughout the rest of that film, and most of which was actively ignored by Civil War anyway.

Then again they did build Natasha's sendoff on one of the wildly reviled lines in AOU, to the point that her solo film is almost entirely dedicated to cleanup duty because they refused to just let it stay dead in the ground where it belonged, after having successfully ignored it in CW and IW.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 21st 2021 at 5:08:17 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#134064: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:07:51 PM

[up] As noted on the MCU YMMV page under Base-Breaking Character, it's clear that the polarization of Steve does have a lot of roots in the fact that the writers of the two Whedon movies were not Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely.

Okey Dokey!
MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#134065: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:08:52 PM

I argue it wasn't. Because the character still has that undercurrent of being lost in Civil War and Infinity War/Endgame.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#134066: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:10:35 PM

[up]Yeah, exactly. As much shit as people give Whedon, I actually think that was one of the most accurate moments.

Steve in Civil War also clearly shows the "Punch my way out" mentality and being unable to deal in shades of gray.

Edited by Forenperser on Sep 21st 2021 at 11:11:04 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#134067: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:12:07 PM

I get that people hate Whedon, his writing and the movie, but this whole idea that AOU is actively ingnored by later movies is revisionist as shit.

Edited by MrSeyker on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:20:51 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#134068: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:12:45 PM

I would have bought a "Steve dies/Tony retires for realsies this time we swear" ending, actually. Unlike the IM 3 -> AOU rebound Tony now had an additional reason to hang up the suit (his kid).

That only sounds like a good reason until the next thing comes along. Like. Okay. Tony hangs up the suit because he loves his kid and wants to take care of her. I can believe that.

AVENGERS 4: Galactus has arrived and will exterminate the Earth. If he is not opposed, all humanity will die. Superheroes from around the world and maybe even space all come together to fight Galactus.

And. Tony. Just. Sits in his living room and lets Galactus kill him and his child? Doesn't even send Armor Drones to the action? Just leaves his kid's fate up to the whims of fate? This is the reasonable course of events that would occur?

So long as the character is alive, there will always be a point where it doesn't make any sense for them to stay in retirement.

There was no way to do the Vormir death without pissing off the fans of whoever chose to die, so I accept Nat’s death for what it is. I have no complaints about Tony’s death or Steve’s fate though, they were the best sendoffs.

I don't think MCU Hawkeye really has that much of a fanbase, to be honest. Black Widow had a following of female fans eager to see Marvel's First Female Superhero finally get a chance to shine who felt spurned by the decision to kill her off. But how many people can really say that Jeremy Renner's Hawkeye is the guy, the one guy they absolutely could not go without in all the MCU?

I get the Bucky complain, I really do. But Bucky is not a character they are retiring, there's still story that they want to tell with him, including the man out of time angle that Steve left behind.

I mean. Black Widow had a movie in production when the Russos abruptly decided to kill her off mid-filming. I don't think "a story they still want to tell" really matters as much as you think it does.

The story they wanted to tell was Endgame. They couldn't care less what comes next.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:13:16 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#134069: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:12:48 PM

It bothers me that people on the previous page were allowed to suggest this thread is sometimes an echo chamber, but when I did so a week or so ago I got thumped for it.

Anyway, I'm... conflicted on Steve's ending. On the one hand, I get it. They wanted to write Captain America out but didn't wanna just kill him off like they did Iron Man, so they took advantage of the time travel plot to find an alternative way to permanently remove him from the picture. And in the moment it comes across as a neat happy ending, seeing this elderly Cap hand the shield off to Sam and reminisce on his time with Peggy set to a 40's slow dance.

But it really doesn't hold up to scrutiny once the initial "awww" factor wears off. It contradicts previous time travel rules, it suggests Steve is incapable of moving on from the past, and it doesn't feel like a choice he'd make after all he went through in the previous films.

[up]MCU Hawkeye has a pretty big fanbase. I recall a lot of people really wanting a Hawkeye show and being delighted when one was finally announced.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Sep 21st 2021 at 5:14:36 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#134070: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:13:07 PM

.

Edited by Synchronicity on Sep 21st 2021 at 4:13:19 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#134071: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:13:34 PM

[up][up][up]I love Hawkeye, I've always thought he was great. I like him a lot more than Black Widow.

As What If has shown, every movie, character, and scene in the MCU is canon, even if you don't remember/like it.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:15:30 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134072: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:13:50 PM

They're different kinds of lost to me. In his solo films he felt lost for the obvious time transplant reason and for the grayer morality of the modern day, but as a genuine idealist, was able to find that Values Resonance in some of his likeminded peers, plus evidence that the modern day has made progress in a lot of areas. Which is a huge part of why it's so offputting to many that he'd return to the past, a time filled with the exact kinds of great social inequalities that he was shown despising in the first film and for good reasonnote . That's very different from the argument AOU put forth for him being an out-and-out Blood Knight with a particular fixation towards Peggy (who wasn't originally going to appear in that movie, but Atwell asked).

His big arc in TWS is that he is capable of adjusting to the modern day with good people like Sam and Natasha by his side. Peggy herself even explicitly tells him as much, and emphasizes that he not cling to her because she liked him but moved on and had a good life without him. Civil War shows similar, adding the caveat that it is admittedly hard, but not impossible.

And, well, there's Bucky. I don't even mean in a shipping way, but in a "be decent to your best friend" way. He has a literal relatable person to talk to (plus, well, all the literal old people; it's not like Bucky didn't choose to socialize with old folks, or that he isn't also dealing with the same problems) for that if he misses the good old days that much. He didn't go through all that trouble to reunite with him and save him and even have a special phrase for how he'd stick through even the hardest of times for him, just to kick him to the curb at the last second. A lot of people who don't even ship or get ultra-invested in that duo also found it baffling.

[up][up][up] That's because they like the (admittedly colorful and long-storied) comics incarnation, not Renner's take on him.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 21st 2021 at 7:06:18 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#134073: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:21:19 PM

I don't like Steve's ending because it weakens his character and story. Faced with the prospect of change and being forced to move on, Steve... gave up and quit because change is hard. He moved heaven and earth to run away and hide under his blankets from the scary world outside.

Steve Rogers was faced with the prospect of overcoming loss, deemed it insurmountable, and gave up. He effectively ragequit his life and committed suicide because he couldn't deal with never getting that dance from that one woman he used to know. And everyone hails it as an appropriate and proper conclusion because his life was hard.

I like to see my heroes overcome their struggles, personally. Steve's catch phrase was, "I can do this all day." But apparently that was a fucking lie, because he gave up and quit as soon as he saw a chance to do so.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#134074: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:25:38 PM

Y'know on further review I think my big problem with Steve's ending in Endgame isn't that it's out of character, it's that I don't really get why Steve is the only one to get the unambiguously happy ending.

Like, Tony's dead, Natasha's dead, Heimdall/original Loki/original Gamora/original Vision is dead, everyone else either goes off to have other adventures/retire but they'll probably be sucked into dealing with other stuff, and one way or another everyone has to deal with the fallout of either having been gone for five years or dealing with the chaos of a world half empty for five years.

But not Steve. Steve gets a do-over on the life he missed, he gets to go back and be with Peggy and not have to wonder about what might have been. Leading the Avengers/making sure there's still an Avengers to lead? Nah, forget about that, even though I'm all about responsibility and what have you.

Like, when time travel and the Infinity Gauntlet are at play it feels really cheap that everyone involved went out of their way to ensure "No, this isn't just some magic fix thing, nobody who died is coming back, even if a duplicate of themselves comes back it's still not the original them, there are no erasing the consequences of what's happened so all you can do is pick up the pieces and move on"... unless you're Steve Rogers.

Edited by Khfan429 on Sep 21st 2021 at 2:26:53 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#134075: Sep 21st 2021 at 2:31:04 PM

I'd just have killed Steve during the final battle and as a side-effect of some meddling with the Soul Stone, Peggy's spirit and Steve's spirit get reunited in the afterlife and finally do share that long-promised dance.

But I'd have killed a whole lot of people. I'd have killed Iron Man, Hulk, Cap and Hawkeye, probably.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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