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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#134026: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:13:47 PM

My best guess is that they wanted to give Steve a proper ending, but killing him off would've probably would've stepped on Tony and Natasha's deaths and having him retire would've been a bit too open-ended. So, time travel it was.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134027: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:17:18 PM

It's already implied that he retired anyway. The open ending could just as easily be resolved that he was weakened by the trip somehow and was around but lost the ability to superhero. Him just living his life in the present, as a regular guy Walking the Earth in the present, free of obligations, would've been a pretty good one too. If they're afraid about him and Bucky being too gay, just have Bucky remark that he's off dating girls in the present. Metal Gear Rising Revengeance got away with similar implications about Otacon.

As I've also beat this dead horse before, I'm aware of the out-of-universe circumstances that Evans wanted to leave, and I get that, so they could've kept the time travel part, but modify the circumstances of his trip so that it avoids a lot of the Unfortunate Implications it has in its current form. At least have him be somewhat conflicted about leaving the present, or set it that he didn't have enough particles to return young, rather than making it a particularly OOC choice of his, or needlessly retconning out the whole of Agent Carter (which the writers had very firmly committed to as of Civil War and been aggressive in promoting Sharon as the One True Love before critics at the time).

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 21st 2021 at 4:40:39 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#134028: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:25:42 PM

Yeah, I suspect that the filmmakers' motivation for Steve's ending was rooted in the simple fact that both Robert Downey Jr. and Chris Evans planned to leave once Endgame finished. Either Steve or Tony could do the big sacrifice scene, but they can't both do it.

This is kind of a caveat to a big shared universe like this. There's never a point where it's done. Ant-Man can't defeat Yellowjacket, then hang up his suit because, like, it's over. The big scary thing was a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence, it's finished, and the world will never be imperiled like this again. He can just go have a normal life now.

No, in the superhero shared universe, there's always another Big Scary lurking around the next corner. It's hard to retire characters. What, Captain America's going to turn on the evening news, see that Mephisto has eaten half the souls of North America, then shrug and go, "Ehhhh, not my problem anymore?" We've established so many times that he'll put down the shield when he's too dead to lift it anymore, so how do we now write him putting down the shield?

He can't just go away. We've already seen that. Tony Stark already went away at the end of Iron Man 2. And Iron Man 3. And Age of Ultron. He keeps coming back because of course he keeps fucking coming back. He's Iron Man. It doesn't make sense for him to stay away. If the actor wants to leave, then the character needs to be incapable of coming back.

If we kill him and Tony, that's redundant. So how do we make Steve incapable of coming back? Well, the filmmakers were writing a time travel movie. So maybe he uses time travel to go home. The premise of the film presented an "out" for the character, so they used it. With little regard to how it fit with the mechanics of the story, with the themes of the character, or with the themes of other stories in the MCU, because it was literally just a vehicle through which Chris Evans could leave.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 21st 2021 at 1:26:29 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#134029: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:28:38 PM

Obviously the ending for Cap is rooted in his actor being finished for the role.

Evans is done so they gave tbe character a permanent happy ending farewell.

Its not anymore complex than that.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134030: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:29:50 PM

Like I keep saying, I already get that part of it, but also think that of the choices they could've made with that restriction, the way they handled it was still badly done from a characterization and setting standpoint when it was easier to not have (said aggressive heteronormative and borderline tradwife angle, which smacks of executive fiat).

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 21st 2021 at 4:33:51 AM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#134031: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:32:58 PM

Yeah, the time travel rigmarole and ensuing characterization/plot mess was not necessary. They could kill him off or forcibly retire him or say he's maintaining Hawkeye's farm or something.

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#134032: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:33:43 PM

I argue it wasn't. Steve made strides to move on in AOU, but he was relapsing in Civil War and was all in all shown as lost after the Blip, even if doing the best he could given the circumstances.

Him jumping at the chance when it was in front of him, and having done already more than enough by any metric, it felt right.

The only issue I had was the whole timeloop interpretation by the writers, that has luckly been discredited by the ongoing Narrative.

If the purpose was to have the character exit the story, this was about the best way they could have achieved it without having him die in combat.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#134033: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:34:17 PM

he's on farm somewhere counting sheep,along with Goose.

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#134034: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:35:17 PM

I would have bought a "Steve dies/Tony retires for realsies this time we swear" ending, actually. Unlike the IM 3 -> AOU rebound Tony now had an additional reason to hang up the suit (his kid).

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#134035: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:36:10 PM

They coulda had it so all the time traveling he did to put the stones back caused advanced aging so he couldn’t captain the America anymore

It ties up the thread of the time travel the Avengers found being a sort of conflict breaker but it’s not a great ending for Steve really

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#134036: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:36:52 PM

Let's face it, the snap to end Thanos would work just as well with Steve.

Thanos: I am inevitable!

Okey Dokey!
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#134037: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:37:17 PM

I wonder if we could get an unusual What If episode where we literally see the timeline Steve settled in for sixty years. But that's probably stepping too heavily on potential plot points that might want to be reserved for when Steve returns in some form down the line.

It would be nice to see a reverse of Steve's man out of time narrative, with him being now a man from the future. Also could have him team up with Hank Pym and Wasp in their prime to take down Hydra.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#134038: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:38:32 PM

Again permanently.

He can't walk the Earth as a farmer as that could provide chance of him coming back and I guess death is off the table cause Tony already did it.

So they picked another permanent method.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#134039: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:41:17 PM

Trapping/exiling a hero or debilitating them is a go to in modern comics who want to avoid death is cheap feels.

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#134040: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:42:40 PM

I really don't uderstand why this thread specifically is always so pushy against Steve's ending. It's the only place where I really experience such a negative backlash.

I felt it was a great way to write him off out of the narrative when I left the theater, and continue to do so.

[up] Trapping him in the past is an even more unsatisfactory answer than him simply choosing to stay, and still runs until all the time complications of the ending they chose.

You can make him forcibly old as a side effect of time travel, but what is gained going that route outside of shortening his life to keep him out of the game in the present.

You achieve the same with the current ending, and he gets to have a life of happiness after having spent all his time fighting since he enlisted all the way in the 40s.

Edited by MrSeyker on Sep 21st 2021 at 1:45:52 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#134041: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:43:18 PM

Tbh this thread is usually way more negative about a lot of things. Lmao.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134042: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:43:45 PM

In my experience? Lots of people hate Steve's ending, not just here.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#134043: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:43:46 PM

I loved all three character send-offs in Endgame, and genuinely thought they were perfect endings to Natasha, Tony, and Steve's characters.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#134044: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:45:34 PM

I think we've all gone mad from highly regarded Infinity War and Endgame is when they have some issues that would be nice to be able to discuss.

(Infinity War is probably my least favourite Avengers film? That's an unpopular opinion outside of this forum.

Edited by Whowho on Sep 21st 2021 at 9:49:43 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#134045: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:45:39 PM

I'll be honest, it's nice that Black Widow does show Natasha did get a grave of her own (implying that she did get a funeral), but it would've been nice if she'd been mentioned a bit more beyond that brief mourning period between when the Time Heist concluded and when Bruce put on the gauntlet. Something like one of the Avengers saying, "This is for Natasha!" as they launch an attack on Thanos.

(Infinity War is probably my least favourite Avengers film? That's an unpopular opinion outside of this forum)

I'll be honest, there's several moments in it where I'm like, "I'd rewrite it to change who gets spared/dusted."

Edited by dmcreif on Sep 21st 2021 at 4:46:30 AM

Okey Dokey!
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#134046: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:46:16 PM

Yeah, I don't hear much positive stuff about the Steve stuff. "Traveling back in time to the past, when everything was great" is not something most people resonate with.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#134047: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:47:05 PM

This discussion was spurred by an offsite think piece about how much the author hated Steve's ending. Not convinced? Here's another. So it's definitely not restricted to this thread.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#134048: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:48:50 PM

There was no way to do the Vormir death without pissing off the fans of whoever chose to die, so I accept Nat’s death for what it is. I have no complaints about Tony’s death or Steve’s fate though, they were the best sendoffs.

The legend has returned.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#134049: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:49:47 PM

It's a case where it seems to go against some of Steve's character arc from the prior movies of moving on from his past and establishing a new life for himself in the present. Having him go back seems like he's tossing away everything he built for himself over the past few movies, including Bucky who's now in the exact predicament Steve is in, only without a well-established support network. Plus, there's the awkward situation that Steve ended up making out with his future niece in Civil War. So, that's kinda gross...

I honestly feel pretty neutral towards Steve's ending. It's not something I particularly like, but I get why they did it. I have to pull some big headcanons for me to say it entirely works, but it doesn't actively ruin the movie for me.

But I know some people feel very strongly about it.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#134050: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:50:22 PM

I can't really complain cause they were supposed to be send-offs.

Tont got to die a noble death and Steve got that dance. Pretty simple stuff.

Like alright I get that's how the characters are gonna end, good enough.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 21st 2021 at 1:51:34 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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