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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Rorian Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Halfway to Pon Farr
Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine
#134001: Sep 21st 2021 at 12:39:47 AM

[up]Starkanium most likleywink

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Tony_Stark%27s_New_Element

Edited by Rorian on Sep 21st 2021 at 12:40:14 PM

Cupcakes are coming, Darling!!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#134002: Sep 21st 2021 at 12:47:28 AM

God, that still pisses me off.

That's not how elements work! At least call it a new compound or new isotope!

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#134003: Sep 21st 2021 at 6:47:20 AM

I remember before Captain America: The First Avenger came out, a lot of people were speculating that Tony created Vibranium in Iron Man 2.

So, obviously that didn't pan out.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#134004: Sep 21st 2021 at 6:50:42 AM

I’m glad they didn’t do that because it would make Wakanda pretty irrelevant.

The legend has returned.
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#134005: Sep 21st 2021 at 7:13:22 AM

As for the 10 rings not having their comics powers, I have a feeling they actually will gain them eventually.

After all, it seems likely the rings themselves are gonna focused on a lot more in terms of their true origins in later films.

Watch Symphogear
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#134006: Sep 21st 2021 at 7:22:20 AM

So I saw this article yesterday, and honestly I think the author raises some valid points regarding why Steve's ending in Endgame is problematic.

One of them is how it contradicts the overall message that the MCU Phase 4 films and shows have been sending about how trying to bring back your deceased loved ones (Wanda, Wenwu, Strange Supreme) only brings harm to others.

As far as we the audience know, Steve Rogers is off living his life in domestic bliss with the woman whose funeral he attended while living in modern times, while Wanda, Wenwu, and Strange must face serious repercussions for attempting to bring their significant others back to life. The best argument most defenders of Endgame’s conclusion seem to have for this is that “Steve deserved his happiness!” as if the others weren’t as deserving of theirs.

Okay, Wenwu probably didn’t and maybe not Strange, either, but Wanda had already suffered a ton prior to losing Vision and still helped save the world, knowing it wouldn’t bring back him, her brother, or her parents. If anyone deserves happiness, it’s her.

But the point is just because someone deserves something, it doesn’t mean they can or should get it. It’s hard to watch the moments of poignance in which these characters realize their actions are a big mistake without thinking of how Steve essentially did the same thing and supposedly got off scot-free.

Not to mention the Unfortunate Implications that this causes for The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, with regards to the racism material regarding Sam and Isaiah Bradley:

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was always going to have Steve’s decision in Endgame hanging over it because of who its central characters are. The show skirts the subject of what happened to Steve after Endgame—or even if Sam is aware of where/when he went—by making some jokes about him going to the Moon and leaving it at that, only mentioning him sparingly. This series clearly wants to move on from Steve Rogers but it can’t because its very premise is all about the consequences of his actions in Endgame, passing the Captain America shield to Sam Wilson and leaving Bucky Barnes the only “man out of time” (and one of the few super-soldiers) in the present-day MCU before seemingly exiting their lives for good.

What makes for peak awkwardness is how, during the discussions of racism, particularly what happened to Isaiah Bradley in the 1950s, we as the audience have to watch with the knowledge that Steve decided that was a better time in which to live than the modern day. But other than a brief “how could we?” acknowledgement from Bucky that he and Steve would never be able to truly understand the weight of a black man holding Captain America’s shield, this is entirely swept under the rug.

And how Loki complicates things further:

Loki (and perhaps What If…? to a lesser extent) also had some explaining to do because of their importance of timeline rules. But Loki somehow makes Steve’s decision to live in the past with Peggy even more confusing; now it’s not just a matter of whether Steve lived in the main timeline or a separate one, but whether his choice to do so was “permitted” by the TVA or if his new timeline got pruned. Steve going back in the main timeline would have surely caused a Nexus event, so he most likely created a new one. Either way, he probably would have been pruned, but if that happened, who gave Sam the shield? Or did this all occur after Sylvie allowed the timelines to branch freely?

Edited by dmcreif on Sep 21st 2021 at 10:22:32 AM

Okey Dokey!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#134007: Sep 21st 2021 at 7:44:38 AM

Yeah, as much as I enjoy Loki, it makes the already nonsensical timeline rules of Endgame even dumber.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#134008: Sep 21st 2021 at 8:53:05 AM

I don't think Steve going back to Peggy is comparable to Wanda or Wenwu trying to resurrect their loved ones.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#134009: Sep 21st 2021 at 8:55:15 AM

As for the 10 rings not having their comics powers, I have a feeling they actually will gain them eventually.

After all, it seems likely the rings themselves are gonna focused on a lot more in terms of their true origins in later films.

The ending to Shang-Chi makes clear that the Ten Rings are going to be built on further as plot devices. However, I doubt we'll see them gain the comic powers.

Part of the reason that reinventing them like this makes sense is because of their function. These Ten Rings weren't designed to be high-end superpowers for epic planet-shaking battles with a hero who hangs with the likes of Thor and the Hulk. They were designed to be inherited by Shang-Chi. They're basically whip-swords; a martial arts superweapon to be wielded by a martial arts character.

They're Wenwu's Ten Rings only up until the point they become Shang-Chi's Ten Rings. And Wenwu himself exists as an obstacle for Shang-Chi to overcome, and a means to provide these weapons to Shang-Chi. Any developments or changes to the Ten Rings going forward will need to be made under the lens of what changes or developments are best for Shang-Chi. Is Shang-Chi supposed to be a martial artist with whip-swords, or is Shang-Chi supposed to be a sorceror who throws reality-warping effects and mind control around with a flick of a finger?

Fans already got a Mulligan on the Mandarin with Wenwu. There isn't a second one coming. The Mandarin is done. He's dead, he's gone, he's never coming back, there is nothing more to tell. The Ten Rings are what they are, and what they are is a powerset to complement Shang-Chi's martial arts. Fans will just have to deal with that.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 21st 2021 at 8:56:03 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#134010: Sep 21st 2021 at 8:59:05 AM

Maybe when Steve went back in time, he did create a branched timeline, and lived there for over 70 years. Ordinarily the TVA would prune that timeline right away ... except the main timeline requires that an old Steve return and give Sam the shield. So they have to wait till Steve makes his return trip before they get to pruning.

Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#134011: Sep 21st 2021 at 10:02:39 AM

The writers of Endgame obviously didn't think this through, creating a mess that now no one wants to fix.

If I were them, I'd say that Steve travelling back in time was not a part of the Sacred Timeline at all and happened after Loki finale when multiversal rules would clearly allow it. And when Peggy died in his branched reality (where he could interfere in history the way he deemed necessary, What If style) he travelled back to the one we as viewers follow to give the shield to Sam.

Loki finale is outside of time, it changed not only the future but the past as well. We assume that everything we saw in the MCU before Loki was a part of the Sacred Timeline, but for this show to work only the events before his escape with the cube really need to be the part of it.

At least this is my current headcanon that allows me to make some sense of Steve's schenanigans smile

Edited by Asherinka on Sep 21st 2021 at 8:19:07 PM

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#134012: Sep 21st 2021 at 10:20:31 AM

[up] Yeah, I think the only way to resolve Steve living his life with Peggy without attracting the TVA would be if all six episodes of Loki somehow happened before/during Endgame's final act.

Although, if they decide to pander to the base a bit and make that one woman who vaguely resembles Peggy in Loki's first episode canon, maybe they can create a Marvel-One Shot of her and Steve confronting the TVA. Would be curious...

Also, I wouldn't mind a What If where Tony fights Wenwu. It would honestly be pretty fun. Maybe the Nexus Event is Shang-Chi returning to his father instead of running away, and getting involved with the events of the Iron Man trilogy?

Also, I really, really really want a What If that has the TVA deciding to capture Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk and Ant-Man during the Battle of New York, and seeing how they react to it.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Sep 21st 2021 at 10:21:17 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#134013: Sep 21st 2021 at 10:48:13 AM

Steve having a life with Peggy is only a "plot hole" with respect to the TVA if you believe the TVA has a fundamentally legitimate mission to preserving the sanctity of what they've deemed "The Sacred Timeline". And the truth is they ultimately don't. We don't find out what that true mission is until the very last episode (a mission withheld from the TVA itself), but even from episode 1 it's supposed to be very clear that the bureaucracy of the TVA is bullshit.

There's something really harmonious about a Rick and Morty writer creating the Sacred Timeline in the MCU only for R&M to cement the Central Finite Curve as essentially it's own take on it. Because they're both really similar if not the same: an infinity of timelines isolated from the greater infinity that is the greater multiverse. The only real difference is the Citadel lazily had the shit run on autopilot.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#134014: Sep 21st 2021 at 11:09:20 AM

Yeah, I think the only way to resolve Steve living his life with Peggy without attracting the TVA would be if all six episodes of Loki somehow happened before/during Endgame's final act.

What do you mean "somehow"? All of Loki takes place within a few days, while there's at least a few weeks in-between the Time Heist and Steve going back to return the Infinity Stones, since they had time to set up a whole funeral for Tony Stark.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 21st 2021 at 11:09:43 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#134015: Sep 21st 2021 at 11:19:11 AM

When it comes to problems created by the T.V.A., their legitimacy doesn't matter. Why the T.V.A. prunes variant timelines is irrelevent. The question is simply, do they or do they not prune variant timelines?

If the T.V.A prunes variant timelines, then the existing variant timelines should have been pruned. It doesn't matter if they prune the timelines because of a sacred mission, or they prune the timelines because some asshole said so, or they prune the timelines because they ate some bad tacos. Do they or do they not?

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 21st 2021 at 11:19:24 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#134016: Sep 21st 2021 at 11:23:34 AM

They only prune variant timelines whose actions would directly result in Kang the Conqueror. Anything else seems to be deliberately kept off the TVA's radar by Immortus/He Who Remains. The Steve/Peggy timeline may not have been a danger in creating Kang, so it was left alone. There's also the fact that the Time Heist was explicitly allowed to happen by the TVA, and thus Steve going back was allowed as well.

Edited by lbssb on Sep 21st 2021 at 11:27:36 AM

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#134017: Sep 21st 2021 at 11:49:30 AM

It's definitely a weird scenario because I can't recall any other media with Time Cops where the answer to the legality of time travel is "Depends". The closest analogue to the TVA in my head is the Time Patrol from Dragon Ball Xenoverse and even then time travel is expressly illegal, all major diversions need to be reset, and according to Word of God all minor diversions will just dissolve over time. It's a simple binary that decades of media has kept to to the point where the tropes are ingrained, and the MCU decides it won't play like that.

And I honestly don't think that's bad in and of itself. Waldron explicitly confirmed the rope theory - that the Sacred Timeline is like a rope with each universe a thread in that rope - but it would've really helped to spend 15 seconds spelling that out. Y'know, like maybe in the end when HWR has literally sat the Lokis down to exposit why all this shit's like this.

You can't treat the casual MCU base like the casual R&M base y'know. After all you have to have a very high IQ to underst-*brick'd*

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134018: Sep 21st 2021 at 12:15:00 PM

Part of me even wonders if the writers deliberately made Steve's ending confusing and unsatisfying on purpose for the sake of increased engagement and to give Phase 4 something to do.

Anyway I pretty much take it as granted that the events of Loki happened before Steve going back to a parallel timeline, because it feels too much like a post-hoc explanation for what Steve did not to be. Not to mention I get the feeling they wanted to put a further bullet into the timeloop theory because of how bad leaving that option open was for future storytelling. Good riddance honestly, as it already made almost zero sense within Endgame's own already shaky if somewhat internally consistent timetravel rules, to the point even the writers themselves admitted it was nonsensical and they were playing loose with their own canon "for the feels" (and which just ended up causing a huge chunk of the audience to cry Fridge Horror, so much for that).

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 21st 2021 at 3:24:51 PM

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#134019: Sep 21st 2021 at 12:31:35 PM

I wouldn't necessarily say the ending with Steve is deliberately confusing, more that it's deliberately meant to thread the needle and work with both interpretations, likely to keep all sides for the most part happy.

Though really the writers' time-loop interpretation straight-up doesn't work. Not only because there's clear hints of at least branching timeline shenanigans in Endgame (Loki was already being produced hence the Sequel Hook) but because the implications of Steve actually being Sharon's uncle are both immediately obvious and immediately Squick.

EDIT: [down] Brain fart, lol. Point still stands.

Edited by Watchtower on Sep 21st 2021 at 3:37:54 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#134020: Sep 21st 2021 at 12:34:02 PM

Peggy isn’t Sharon’s mom

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#134021: Sep 21st 2021 at 12:35:50 PM

She's aunt Peggy, not mom Peggy. Also, when Loki was first being announced, they outright lied and said that it had nothing to do with the Loki that escaped with the Space Stone in Endgame, so there's that.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#134022: Sep 21st 2021 at 12:50:10 PM

November 12th is Disney+ Day!

Not only will Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings will be available to stream then, but there will also be a special that'll look into what's next for the MCU.

(Ms. Marvel? Moon Knight? Blade? Dare we hope for Fantastic Four or even Deadpool 3?)

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Sep 21st 2021 at 3:55:19 PM

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#134023: Sep 21st 2021 at 12:58:31 PM

Maybe Steve got a forced obligatory hetrosexual ending because Disney were uncomfortable with all the Stucky shippers?

Mostly the ending annoys me because it reverses Steve's entire character arc in Ao U where he realises the Avengers is his home and puts the 1940s behind him.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#134024: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:05:13 PM

Wouldn't surprise me honestly considering Disney's increasing emphasis on being a company all about Family Values TM. But if they're that bothered about having acquired this Periphery LGBT Fanbase and its Alternative Character Interpretation (and the aggressiveness with which they pushed the Steve>Peggy angle while minimizing Steve-Bucky interaction even from a platonic friendship/brotherly standpoint, suggests a course-correcting Writer on Board similar to what was done to Finn and Poe in TROS), then why continue to outright queerbait with Bucky? Especially since they just pissed off a big chunk of the vaunted Chinese demographic in doing so.

Honestly I'm just upset about how, after their mixed track record with female characters, they were making some decent strides, with Peggy and TWS Natasha as highlights (and they got to be this way because of said Endgame writers no less, which makes me wonder where that ability to write women suddenly went), but from Endgame and onward have been decidedly deadset on going back to consigning female characters, especially hetero love interests, to the fridge.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 21st 2021 at 4:24:29 AM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#134025: Sep 21st 2021 at 1:07:44 PM

It's definitely a very dead horse, but it's also too bad because Endgame did a nice job showing Steve helping out in a humble/civilian way as a grief counselor, which could have nicely foreshadowed him retiring from superheroing and leading a normal, helpful life in this universe.

Not to mention, if they wanted a heterosexual relationship, there was already the well done potential Friends with Benefits relationship between Natasha and Steve in Winter Soldier.

Natasha's fate is obviously another point of contention... Edit- Semi-[nja]

Edited by Hodor2 on Sep 21st 2021 at 3:09:22 AM


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