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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133751: Sep 16th 2021 at 10:27:04 PM

This isn't going to tank the MCU. At worst this will tank the character, and that's only if he goes Full Carano and escalates it and they decide the recast isn't worth it.

Plenty of people are presently shitty or have done shitty things. Creatives are no different.

Edited by Synchronicity on Sep 16th 2021 at 12:27:24 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#133752: Sep 17th 2021 at 1:01:41 AM

As someone who also existed and said words in 2015, a lot of those sound like they can be chalked up to honest ignorant mistakes. Obviously not good, but essentially Asian American man gets busted for saying the kinds of stupid things cishet Asian American men were unfortunately known to say a lot of at the time (have had to steer my brother away from such things at that time). So probably not a permanent black spot, it's something he can make up for.

Edit:Looked up the pedophilia thing out of curiosity and absolutely that's just a mix of regular old ignorance, unfortunate phrasing, and a few things that aren't even wrong? The idea that at least some instances of attraction to minors, as Squicky as it is, may be biological/neurological in origin rather than cultural (hence the unfortunate but non-malicious comparisons to homosexuality), and that such particular people if they exist and are indeed like that as the result of an unlucky genetic lottery, need understanding rather than abuse for something they can't actually control, is considered a perfectly valid interpretation by many psychological professionals and members of the progressive community of today. Definitely not cancellation-worthy. As long as he isn't still saying that sort of thing to this day, in that particular way, it's genuinely not worth caring about. And considering how long ago this post was made, that just sounds like drama vultures looking for an excuse to circle in.

The siccing fans on haters thing is a lot less defensible if true, but it depends on the timeframe as that could be a case of Small Name, Big Ego as is unfortunately common with up-and-coming creators in the 2010s.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 17th 2021 at 2:03:08 PM

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#133753: Sep 17th 2021 at 1:42:33 AM

I don't even see it tanking the character, it was long enough ago that if he apologizes/acknowledges what he said and pinky promises never to do it again then they'll draw a line under it.

If he keeps on saying it (a la Carano) then it's a different story but I don't think he's going to self sabotage like that.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#133754: Sep 17th 2021 at 6:49:23 AM

I don't care about things people have said over four years ago if there isn't evidence that they still hold those beliefs today.

Seven years ago? I don't even remember the stuff I believed seven years ago.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#133755: Sep 17th 2021 at 7:32:43 AM

I'm sure past me was an idiot. I'm fairly sure future me will also be an idiot. Present me is of course a genius.tongue

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#133756: Sep 17th 2021 at 7:37:06 AM

It's weird that he used the same account for redditing that he used for AM As and stuff. Like, make a new account at that point.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#133757: Sep 17th 2021 at 7:46:43 AM

Honestly, I'm more concerned about whether he is still apparently friendly with Men’s Rights Asians, the news of which was how the old Reddit stuff got brought up in the first place.

I wasn't exactly impressed that his response to all of this being brought up was to call the people calling him out "trolls and bad faith actors who want to drag your name through the mud."

Seriously, is it really that hard to just say you said stupid shit a few years ago and that you're sorry about it?

Edited by M84 on Sep 17th 2021 at 10:51:40 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133758: Sep 17th 2021 at 7:52:12 AM

Yeah, as an Asian woman who has seen how hateful those communities are, that discomfits me more than the pedo stuff.

He has tweeted out something that implies it’s all slander and I’m not sure how to feel about it.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#133759: Sep 17th 2021 at 7:53:14 AM

[up]Notice how that's not an apology. It's pretty much the opposite of an apology, really.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#133760: Sep 17th 2021 at 8:11:50 AM

I haven't been focusing on the MRA piece because I haven't actually seen the evidence that he's still chummy with that crowd. At least going down that Simu tweet the evidence at least appears to be a causal link between screencaps of him saying stupid shit in 2015 and earlier and screencaps of him stupidly continuing to use that subreddit account afterwards.

Incidentally it does look like said account was deleted at some point, which would explain why a lot of these screencaps are coming through the Wayback Machine. And it's definitely not the account he used in that Shang-Chi AMA - I think most people would recognize him calling himself "nippedinthebud".

[up] You are right in that that isn't an apology in the slightest. It's hard for me to tell timeline-wise but I hope that is about the MRA accusations and not the awful subreddit comment.

Edited by Watchtower on Sep 17th 2021 at 11:12:48 AM

MegaJ Since: Oct, 2009
#133761: Sep 17th 2021 at 8:34:49 AM

Disappointing to hear that about Simu, but on the same note, I'm burnt out on Twitter outrage due to the performative nature/clout chasing on there. If this story leaves Twitter, I'm sure he and Marvel already have the apology ready to go, especially since it appears these posts were known about previously.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133762: Sep 17th 2021 at 10:39:37 AM

I don't care about things people have said over four years ago if there isn't evidence that they still hold those beliefs today.

Seven years ago? I don't even remember the stuff I believed seven years ago.

See. I'm the opposite on that. If, ten years ago, you said something like, "We should put all left-handed people in cages," or "Ooh boy, I sure love me some toddler feet."

Then. Like. I'm going to need some assurances that you don't still want to enslave left-handers or get horny over toddler feet. I don't think these kinds of things are something that people just grow out of over time.

The problem is not the things you said. The problem is what those things reveal about the kind of person that would say them. The whole "youthful indiscretions" argument is predicated on the idea that nobody actually believes these ideas; they just say them to shock people because they're young and want to be offensive. It's an assertion that Nazis, Klansmen, rapists, pedophiles, these aren't real; they're just fabrications of people trying to be funny that are too young to know better.

And. Well. That's bullshit. People can change over time, but it shouldn't be assumed that people have changed over time just because they made a cool movie you liked. I'm willing to extend second chances to people who recognize their beliefs as toxic. But I'm also an adherent to the idea that when people show you who they are, you should believe them.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 17th 2021 at 10:41:19 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#133763: Sep 17th 2021 at 10:50:10 AM

A Twitter thread running through the whole thing.

TLDR:

  • Despite his account being deleted all of his posts are intact and easily searchable (the OP even provides a tool)
  • He only made a couple comments to the MRA/incel subreddit in question (r/aznidentity), all of them are about him in Kim's Convenience, and all of them are from 2016, arguably before said subreddit became an incel hub (the last bit I'm still looking into personally)
  • There doesn't seem to be any other examples of MRA/incel rhetoric in his other posts, and the accusation that he moderated a subreddit targeting black women seems to be completely fabricated. In fact there's a fair bit of evidence of him batting against racism in his posts.
  • The awful subreddit post about pedophilia is the one real red flag, and even then it, as noted, is an attempt at a legit but extremely delicate argument (with fair but extremely delicate comparisons) that he ran through in the most ignorant head-ass way possible.

Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#133764: Sep 17th 2021 at 10:54:06 AM

Another insightful thread about the issue. Both the one you linked and this one were sticked by the mods on the MCU leaks reddit.

TLDR Context is important.

Edited by Asherinka on Sep 17th 2021 at 9:04:03 PM

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#133765: Sep 17th 2021 at 10:59:27 AM

See. I'm the opposite on that. If, ten years ago, you said something like, "We should put all left-handed people in cages," or "Ooh boy, I sure love me some toddler feet."

Then. Like. I'm going to need some assurances that you don't still want to enslave left-handers or get horny over toddler feet. I don't think these kinds of things are something that people just grow out of over time.

What if you made the latter comment as a toddler?

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#133766: Sep 17th 2021 at 11:18:34 AM

Then I would be very impressed at this toddler’s excellent spelling. tongue

With good grammar, nobody suspects you’re really a babee goo goo wabba bwaaahhh

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#133767: Sep 17th 2021 at 11:21:02 AM

Shit. If I got falsely accused of running an entire community predicated around vicious racism when it wasn't true, I'd also get defensive.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 17th 2021 at 2:30:43 PM

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#133768: Sep 17th 2021 at 11:45:41 AM

It also makes his comments (https://mobile.twitter.com/simuliu/status/1438672026315677698?s=21) seem actually pretty reasonable. If you look at the threads linked above then at worst what he's said is a bit stupid and poorly worded but quite a long way from what he's been accused of actually saying.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#133769: Sep 17th 2021 at 11:47:08 AM

Still, at the end of the day one should really refrain from comparing pedophiles to the LGBTQ+ community when trying to make a point. They've had to put up with way too much of that shit as it is.

Edited by M84 on Sep 18th 2021 at 2:47:23 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#133770: Sep 17th 2021 at 12:38:30 PM

Meanwhile guys on reddit say Marvel "fans" are giving low ratings to Dune on platforms with low verification like Google in retaliation to its director saying Marvel films are formulaic.

"Nuance" is a priceless treasure on the Internet. Anyone who says something remotely unpleasant about the thing you like or uses clumsy language while discussing serious issues should be review bombed or cancelled.

/s, just in case

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#133771: Sep 17th 2021 at 12:44:54 PM

I do get what he's trying to say, poor wording aside. While All Gays Are Pedophiles is particularly nasty historical baggage, he never actually insinuated that acting on pedophilic urges is morally acceptable (quite the opposite) or that homosexuality and pedophilia were causally related outside of having biological origins, and in fact he's operating from the premise that homosexual people are worthy of respect.

The other dicy stuff is more that, well, science is still trying to get to the exact bottom of it so I'd not have stated things as confidently as he did. But nevertheless amidst the conflicting results there is at least some body of data to support the things he said on that matter. Trying to read too deeply beyond that, risks what's known as "disinterpretation".

Speaking as an LGBT person, while I do see it as facepalm-worthy, fraught subject matter aside it's not a particularly more severe case of foot-in-mouth moment than the kind that many of us have frequently had at times.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 17th 2021 at 4:03:00 AM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133772: Sep 17th 2021 at 2:29:11 PM

[up][up]I was boutta say...Denis probably sighed in relief when it turned out he wasn't the Big Marvel Discourse of the day after all :-)

It really looks like Villenueve was set up there, considering the actual full quote — that isn't even that derisive — is (a) on a Spanish website and (b) paywalled to hell.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#133773: Sep 17th 2021 at 2:52:16 PM

The thing I'm seeing is that, even disregarding how some of this is being blown out of proportion, several big Twitter accounts are claiming Simu Liu part of some MRAsian stuff and they keep making allusions to people supposedly coming out with anonymous stories about his actions behind the scenes. But I've not seen anyone actually disclose these stories. One person piggybacks off the Slate article saying "I know one big celebrity is part of this", then suddenly says it was Liu and that all of Liu's posts on Reddit were scrubbed...which as other people pointed out is not possible. They found the posts, they don't match what's being claimed.

Beyond that, there's some AV Club writer who's saying stuff and it's...blugh. This is the same person who got into it over a cook book, I don't know what the hell is going on anymore.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133774: Sep 17th 2021 at 3:31:24 PM

Huh I just now realized we don't have any crime bosses.

Man it be cool if we get Kingpin or Tombstone here.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#133775: Sep 17th 2021 at 4:16:51 PM

Well, considering D'onofrio is coming back in Hawkeye and many assume he'll be the Kingpin, we may get that crime boss soon enough.

Though I think we should all hedge our expectations considering the Ralph Bonner incident.

One Strip! One Strip!

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