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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#133576: Sep 13th 2021 at 1:46:49 PM

[up][up] It's more of a trivia fact than anything else.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#133577: Sep 13th 2021 at 1:58:46 PM

I just try not to think about Iron Man 3 in general, to be honest.

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133578: Sep 13th 2021 at 2:17:31 PM

This conversation about Clint's body count entertains me because I remember having arguments like this about the comics.

It happens with every Avenger. There's this idea that floats around fandom spaces that all superheroes refuse to kill. That killing, for any reason, is just this absolute ultimate evil that no superhero would ever commit and all superheroes, Marvel and DC alike, are in agreement with that.

That's not really a thing at Marvel. Except when it is. Most Marvel supers subscribe to the doctrine of reasonable force. They'll use as much force as is necessary to get the job done. No more, no less. This often winds up being nonlethal, at least for the recognizable villains; sometimes mooks get lobbed into the sun or their helicopter is blown up or whatever and no one's really concerned about their fate beyond that. But it's not, like, a dedicated effort to be nonlethal.

Iron Man has not sworn an oath against nonkilling. Neither has Captain America. Or Hawkeye. Or Black Widow. Or Thor. Or the Hulk. Etc. etc. A lot of writers often won't explicitly depict them taking a life, but they don't make a fuss about it. It just happens that the Red Skull lived through the beating Captain America gave him and was taken into custody alive. Even then, sometimes they do explicitly kill, such as when Iron Man and a team of Avengers stone-cold executed the Kree Supreme Intelligence in the wake of Galactic Storm.

But some people insist that Avengers have all sworn oaths against killing because that's what superheroes do. Superheroes never kill, ever. And sometimes those people become Marvel Comics writers. This can create some wild fucking dissonance. In one comic, you see Hawkeye shooting clearly pointed arrows at Hand ninjas, and then in another comic released the same week, Hawkeye is explaining that being an Avenger means revering all life and never killing anyone, no matter what.

So. Yeah. Most Marvel supers don't really have a passionate opinion on the topic of killing, except when they're written by writers that do. Spider-Man is basically the one guy at Marvel who has an absolute stance of "Killing bad, always, no exceptions."

Of course, some characters create more dissonance than others when their turn comes up to have a "Superheroes don't kill, right?" writer. Hawkeye's a funny one because, like Wolverine, his main method of conflict resolution is to plunge bladed implements into an adversary's flesh. Like half of his trick arrows exist simply to resolve the inherent contradiction created by an archer trying to be nonlethal. And the other half exist to help him kill more effectively.

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133580: Sep 13th 2021 at 2:30:59 PM

Clint actually does have an explicit no-killing rule in the comics.

And its something he takes seriously, to the point of divorcing Mockingbird for killing Phantom Rider for raping her.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133581: Sep 13th 2021 at 2:37:26 PM

Endgame condemns Clint's actions as worse than "reasonable force", though. He was willing to yeet himself off the cliff as atonement because he knew he was in the wrong.

Forgiving the character is fine, it's a YMMV sitch similar to "did Wanda get off too easy for Westview?". But pretending it was a reasonable trauma response is uhh...

For a change of topic, did anyone know Marvel tried to make a Cap musical happen in the '80s?

Edited by Synchronicity on Sep 13th 2021 at 4:37:59 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#133582: Sep 13th 2021 at 2:39:34 PM

How serious the whole No-Killing thing is depends on the writer, just like most things.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#133583: Sep 13th 2021 at 2:41:46 PM

How believable is Bruce Banner is such a genius that he subconsciously calculated every rampage so that no one dies anyway?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#133584: Sep 13th 2021 at 2:44:17 PM

Not very, which is why it wasn't really used by anybody other than Greg Pak. The Hulk has canonically killed people. And it makes sense for the character too.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#133585: Sep 13th 2021 at 2:44:52 PM

That's the excuse Marvel writers go with, because if Bruce kills, Ross is in the right, and that's not good.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#133586: Sep 13th 2021 at 2:47:19 PM

And it kinda becomes harder for people to root for the Hulk and see him as a hero.

Thought the flip flop on whether or not he's killed people has lead to World War Hulk's premise getting silly at one point since the Hulk rampaging through Vegas killed several people which was changed to injuring people with no casualties.

Which made the whole Reed and other science heroes sending him into space a bit of a overreaction.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133587: Sep 13th 2021 at 2:47:50 PM

Granted if Hulk kills anyone thats more Ross' fault for deliberately provoking him.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#133588: Sep 13th 2021 at 2:53:17 PM

How believable is Bruce Banner is such a genius that he subconsciously calculated every rampage so that no one dies anyway?

He would have to have the hyper awareness of a god AND somehow be psychic to account for people possibly darting in a different direction when running from chaos.

All while controlling the literal personification of his Id.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#133589: Sep 13th 2021 at 3:00:42 PM

The no killing thing used to be editorial policy under Shooter

And in fairness, half of the Avengers killing the supreme intelligence caused a rift in the Avengers.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#133590: Sep 13th 2021 at 3:45:46 PM

Yeah IIRC the Avengers at one point used to have a no-killing policy, back when they were a private membership club bunking in one of Stark's mansions like a clubhouse. It was only really in the 2000s that this default "superheroes never kill" assumption was eroded away.

Nowadays only a couple Marvel heroes have explicit ones due to personal hang-ups (off the top of my head Spidey and Daredevil) and others are more implied by the fact that they'd never use lethal force anyway (basically any Kid Hero).

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#133591: Sep 13th 2021 at 5:07:35 PM

Rogers: The Musical is the Cats of the MCU version of Broadway in that it’s popular due to being around for ages

No, I agree it's more analogous to Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark, in that it's a new splashy arthouse thing that makes people go "why?".

The fact it's just called "Rogers" made me think it's more of a reference to Hamilton.

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#133592: Sep 13th 2021 at 6:01:41 PM

Going back a page, Clint's conversation with Laura was really brief in the trailer. But it did sound more like a husband/wife conversation, opposed to an ex-wife conversation. My guess is Linda Cardellini either wasn't available, or the level of COVID health guidelines made it too much of a hassle for what would probably be a glorified cameo.

Edited by Hawkeye86 on Sep 13th 2021 at 9:02:01 AM

You and I remember Budapest very differently
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133593: Sep 13th 2021 at 6:03:15 PM

He's showing up for Christmas which pretty much indicates their still together.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#133594: Sep 13th 2021 at 6:06:10 PM

And I'm sure she's used to him being away on long "business trips".

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#133595: Sep 13th 2021 at 6:35:11 PM

@Watchtower: Imagine everyone telling Tony not to snap Thanos because "it would make him just like the Mad Titan". >.>

Edited by Mizerous on Sep 13th 2021 at 9:35:42 AM

Just Makima.
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133596: Sep 13th 2021 at 6:36:03 PM

Oh, Rogers is definitely a light Hamilton parody, right down to the set design, just that the superheroics might be more analogous to Spider-Man Broadway. I would be willing to bet Lin-Manuel Miranda has already rewritten a Hamilton song to fit it and it'll be this show's "Agatha All Along".

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#133597: Sep 13th 2021 at 6:42:04 PM

Who'll send tickets to Bucky and Sam?

Wake me up at your own risk.
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#133598: Sep 13th 2021 at 9:32:18 PM

John Walker, as a shitty apology.

The legend has returned.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#133599: Sep 13th 2021 at 9:45:08 PM

That actually sounds like something Walker would do.

And he'd be 100% sincere about wanting to apologize, but being who he is and all, it'd still come off as him being an asshole...cause he kinda is an asshole most of the time.

One Strip! One Strip!
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#133600: Sep 13th 2021 at 9:54:20 PM

Spider-Man is basically the one guy at Marvel who has an absolute stance of "Killing bad, always, no exceptions."

Him and Daredevil.

Edited by windleopard on Sep 13th 2021 at 11:50:29 AM


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