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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#133451: Sep 11th 2021 at 9:28:41 PM

One can said it will become diferent chararter once it experience something diferent, sure loki is still loki at first but he did things not other loki have done before so ergo he isnt loki of endgame, the same will happen to gamora.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#133452: Sep 11th 2021 at 9:29:05 PM

[up][up][up]Which means a "person" is a concept, not a specific physical object. Or, perhaps, it would be easier to think of a person as a 4D object, viewed as 3D "slices".

Whether or not you consider 2014 Gamora, Variant Loki, or even 2014 Thanos to be the same "person" as their other selves is entirely dependent on where you personally draw the line, but it strikes me as premature to draw the line as starkly as "once you die, that's absolute and any other self is a different person" in a setting where death is made loose and vague by time travel, mind uploading, trapping yourself and Dormammu in a time loop, or any other such fantastic technology.

[up][up]We'd both be me. We could choose to co-exist and diverge into two separate people, agree to kill one of ourselves so the other can live normally, find some sort of technology that allows us to consolidate our memories back into one brain, act like Creepy Twins, discuss the Ship of Theseus in an abandoned library, or any other number of things.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Sep 11th 2021 at 12:54:43 PM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#133453: Sep 11th 2021 at 10:02:49 PM

When Strange kept getting killed by Dormammu, but kept rewinding time to undo his death ... do you consider each Strange that died to be a separate character?

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#133454: Sep 11th 2021 at 10:06:21 PM

When Strange kept getting killed by Dormammu, but kept rewinding time to undo his death ... do you consider each Strange that died to be a separate character?

Wasn't he aware of each time he died?

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#133455: Sep 11th 2021 at 10:07:13 PM

[up] Judging from Strange and Dormamu's reactions and interactions, Strange retains all the memories of being killed over and over again. Dormamu expects the experience to break Strange first into submission only to be flabbergasted by the doctor's unbreakable will.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#133456: Sep 11th 2021 at 10:08:06 PM

There's also Wong, who died but was "resurrected" by the Time Stone shortly after, presumably losing a few seconds or minutes of memories in the process.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133457: Sep 11th 2021 at 10:23:50 PM

Judging from Strange and Dormamu's reactions and interactions, Strange retains all the memories of being killed over and over again. Dormamu expects the experience to break Strange first into submission only to be flabbergasted by the doctor's unbreakable will.

Right. He dies over and over again, but he retains continuity of consciousness through each successive reset. He's the same person despite his time shenanigans because he has a continuous existence; he is, in the end, aware first-hand of each instance he's lived through. He moved from one version to the next, turning back time but maintaining self.

On the other hand, Series Loki learned how to enchant people from Sylvie. Therefore, should Ragnarok Loki be able to enchant people?

The answer is no. Not because Ragnarok Loki doesn't have the memory of it, but because he never lived it in the first place. Ragnarok Loki and Series Loki are different characters. There is no continuity of self from Ragnarok Loki to Series Loki or vice versa; they share all of the same experience up to the point that they split from, but from there, they have different existences as different selves. Ragnarok Loki did not pass out from being choked by Thanos, then wake up the next morning as Series Loki.

Gamora II, by the same vein, is a new Gamora. She shares experiences with our Gamora to a point, but our Gamora remains dead. There is no continuity of self from one Gamora to the other; they're different people.

Gamora II is a Replacement Goldfish; Gamora did not wake up the next morning in Gamora II's body or something. Gamora died and that was the last thing she knew, forever. The existence of a temporal clone does not change that.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 11th 2021 at 10:24:58 AM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#133458: Sep 11th 2021 at 10:29:23 PM

It’s a very comic book way to bring a character back to life without invalidating their death

The Jean that returned was the Real Jean but it’s similar to Jean’s return after Dark Phoenix where Jean had no memory of what Phoenix Jean did

Until Jean absorbed the Phoenix’s memories and Madelyne Pryor’s too for that matter

Now that’s how you cheat it

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#133459: Sep 11th 2021 at 10:37:16 PM

Tbh, it's not entirely clear why they felt they had to "cheat" it in the first place. The MCU is reaching the point where they want to commit to the idea of not doing resurrections, but since they don't actually want to kill off these marketable characters, they're resorting to "technically still dead" and such odd plot decisions instead.

But yes, New Gamora is a Replacement Goldfish for the original Gamora. Gamora is still dead, and this Gamora is quite literally a Gamora with none of the character and personality that defined the one we know (being a version of Gamora from before she even decided to switch sides, which happened before we first see her), and so is essentially a new character with Gamora's skin.

While it's possible to get technical about whether or not she's literally dead and so on, but a lot of that is moot because at the end of the day this is a narrative issue and not a metaphysical or philosophical one. It's bluntly a "this character is lost forever, but here's a shiny new version of the character instead" writing move.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 11th 2021 at 11:11:35 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#133460: Sep 11th 2021 at 11:06:34 PM

The Rubberman scene in Infinity War is one of my favorite scenes in the movie, but man is it sad seeing Gamora Prime singing along and how she was moving out of her withdrawn shell. sad

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#133461: Sep 12th 2021 at 12:26:00 AM

Honestly, Peter Quill should have been the Guardian who survives the Snap and has to face the consequences of his decisions. Give him some much needed Character Development.

Infinity War makes a lot of baffling choices when it comes to the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Edited by Nightwire on Sep 12th 2021 at 12:31:55 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#133462: Sep 12th 2021 at 12:30:38 AM

He had excellent character development in his own films. The Infinity War writers just regressed him back to his starting self, if not worse, for some reason.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#133463: Sep 12th 2021 at 1:55:20 AM

I'll confess that I really don't like infinity war. It's interesting as an experiment, to have all these characters turn up, but that initial thrill doesn't really hold on rewatches where the narrative is just constantly pinging between characters with no rhyme or reason and everyone is receiving way more trauma than the film has any time to properly examine.

Back in 2012 when Whendon said the infinity gems saga would be the third film I assumed the plot would be the Avengers, as a team, visiting various settings in the MCU to gather the gems. The Avengers go to Asgard, the Avengers go to 1940s America, and when additional films came out, the Avengers go to Knowhere, the avengers go to Khama Taj, the Avengers go to Wakanda.

But Infinity War didn't really end up being a Avengers film, it was an everyone film.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#133464: Sep 12th 2021 at 2:43:24 AM

All this talk about whether the current Gamora is the same person as the Gamora who died is precisely why I don't like Time Travel in a lot of stories.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#133465: Sep 12th 2021 at 3:03:06 AM

It sort of veers into expendable alternate universe and I really dislike that trope.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#133466: Sep 12th 2021 at 3:19:39 AM

[up][up]

Time travel and alternate timelines!

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133467: Sep 12th 2021 at 5:20:22 AM

Whoa I just finished reading the newest issue of Defenders and remembered, we can bring in Galactus and Silver Surfer now.

Man thats gonna be so rad. We gonna go fucking cosmic, its the next level. From ground stuff like international espionage and secret agents, to sci-fi stuff with aliens and blasters, to finally the fucking cosmic Godlike wonders of the universe with a chrome being with the power of a deity surfing the cosmos on his board.

Though now that I realize it Eternals is our continuing foray into the cosmic with its cast of Godlike space aliens. Its gonna be trippy.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#133468: Sep 12th 2021 at 5:32:25 AM

Eternals are basically Marvel answer to the New Gods(made by the same guy no less), difference is no one outside hardcore comic books knows who they are

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133469: Sep 12th 2021 at 5:43:16 AM

I mean. I don't know who the New Gods are either.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133470: Sep 12th 2021 at 5:45:06 AM

You never heard of Darkseid?

https://mediaproxy.tvtropes.org/width/350/https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/623110-darkseid_super.jpg

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 12th 2021 at 5:45:45 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#133471: Sep 12th 2021 at 5:46:55 AM

Granny Goodness too,Steppenwolf too

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133472: Sep 12th 2021 at 5:47:09 AM

Oh, I've heard of Darkseid. And Thanos. But that doesn't extend to knowing anything about the New Gods or Eternals. These characters have far outshone their races.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 12th 2021 at 5:47:29 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#133473: Sep 12th 2021 at 5:47:13 AM

Honestly, people don't care about New Genesis, they only care about Apokolips. As far as the wider audience is concerned, the New Gods begin and end with Darkseid. He's the only one who really matters because he's a Justice League/Superman villain.

And Thanos doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Eternals in the MCU.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 12th 2021 at 5:49:12 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133474: Sep 12th 2021 at 5:51:12 AM

The point is proven regardless that more people know about New Gods than the Eternals and even then New Gods characters other than Apokolips ones do make appearances in stuff.

Mister Miracle in Justice League Action which aired 5 years ago.

As well as the Forever People and Orion in Young Justice which is still going. As well as Forager who is a main character in season 3 and he's a secondary New Gods character.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 12th 2021 at 5:56:41 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#133475: Sep 12th 2021 at 6:05:46 AM

Also the justice League cartoon that aired as well,to my knowledge Marvel's cartoons have never touched the new gods concept,they did however feature Galactus and Ego in the Silver surfer cartoon

have a listen and have a link to my discord server

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