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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#133401: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:07:36 PM

I would have had Drax screw up the Thanos plan on Titan instead of Quill.

The legend has returned.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#133402: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:07:37 PM

The fact that Shang-Chi is doing so well despite being released in the middle of a pandemic speaks wonders. Although I'm avoiding the theaters for the time being, the word of mouth I've been hearing has overall been very positive. I have a feeling that had there not been a global pandemic shutting down theaters, we might have seen some really big numbers at the box-office.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#133403: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:08:03 PM

Black Widow survives Endgame and gets to participate in the final battle alongside the other original Avengers.

Not sure how (without just dumping someone else off the cliff, I mean) since they established the Soul Stone as requiring a toll.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#133404: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:08:34 PM

[up][up]It’s really doing very well on word of mouth alone, and it’s great to see. If this continues, I hope it can be a way to carve out its own corner of the MCU.

The big thing I thought before release that it could lead to (that is, an alternate avenue through which to release the other heroes for hire or martial arts characters) might not be the case since the film goes all the way into Wuxia in the last act with a power boost for Shang, so I’m a little in a spec stage on where it’s going.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 11th 2021 at 1:10:42 AM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133405: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:09:45 PM

Speaking as a non-Chinese non-East Asian person my initial reaction to the Shang-Chi announcement was admittedly Stop Being Stereotypical ("Your first big-screen Asian superhero... is a martial artist... groundbreaking") but I'm glad it's apparently a good movie and culturally relevant.

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#133406: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:19:57 PM

While I do love Paul Rudd's Scott Lang, it always bothers me that they just had Hank and Janet's superhero careers confined to the past. If I were to change one thing about the Infinity Saga, it would be to have them be the Ant-Man and Wasp that serve alongside the Avengers (possibly even as founders like in the comics) and then introduce Scott later on. I don't know if this means making Rudd Hank or not.

Of course, they ideally wouldn't do anything related to The Slap, but they could explore the topic of Hank's mental health in a hopefully tasteful fashion.

[down]Cassandra Cain, Ryan Choi, Psylocke (if you ignore the bodyswap stuff) and Jubilee immediately come to mind other than Shang-Chi.

Edited by lbssb on Sep 11th 2021 at 1:25:53 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133407: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:21:45 PM

[up][up] On that note man it’s sad I can’t think of any Asian heroes off the top of my head.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#133408: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:23:00 PM

Uh off the top of my head?

Jimmy Woo? Cassandra cain? jubilee?

Edit: Fuck. How did I forgot Ryan Choi?

Edited by miraculous on Sep 11th 2021 at 1:25:32 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#133409: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:24:31 PM

Jake Long?

The legend has returned.
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#133410: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:28:56 PM

I looked on the Asian-American Media page for more and was reminded that Kamala would count. I also remembered Quake and, if we're using Canon Foreigners, Melinda May.

Also Hiro and Gogo, Silk, Kato, Katana, Amadeus Cho, and Ultimate Wasp.

And of course, there's pretty much everybody in My Hero Academia.

Edited by lbssb on Sep 11th 2021 at 1:41:02 AM

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Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#133411: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:49:36 PM

[up][up] Yeah Anomalocaris 20, I wish Black Widow had lived and participated in the final fight against Thanos. I just hated the fact that she had to be fridged for Hawkeye, who was far more deserving of being the one to pull off the sacrifice to get the Soul Stone given that he lost his family and was so grief-struck that he became the brutal vigilante known as Ronin. It would have been a bittersweet yet satisfying way to bring back his loved ones and be at peace with himself. In fact, Hawkeye was supposed to die in Endgame but then one SFX advisor changed it to Black Widow because she didn't want the Vormir scene to take it away from her. In all honesty, having Black Widow not die doesn't really take away that much from the character since she not only has the burden of letting one of her closet friends die but she would struggle with this decision and would still feel guilty about it while recognizing that it was a sad but necessary sacrifice to get the Soul Stone.

On the topic of Ant-Man and the Wasp as founding Avengers instead of Black Widow and Hawkeye, they would have been present in Iron Man 2, Thor and the Avengers films had Edgar Wright not insisted on leaving them out of the team so he could make his own movie about them. In this alternate scenario, they would have been S.H.I.E.L.D. agents like in the mainline MCU but even more important with Janet being sent by Nick Fury to keep an eye on Iron Man under the guise of a Stark Industries secretary and Hank would be in New Mexico to look over Mjolnir as well as attempt to kill Thor but stopped at the last minute by Phil Coulson and later brainwashed by Loki to attack the other Avengers only to be snapped out of it by his wife. Perhaps as a direct reference to the comics, Janet could be the one to name the Avengers in a manner similar to Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Also, Wasp would have probably died in Endgame similar to Black Widow. For Goliath, he would be around Hank/Janet's age and serve as the Falcon/War Machine for Ant-Man and the Wasp. Hope would have been the young daughter of Hank and Janet instead of Wasp herself. Hank and Janet would still operate in San Francisco to branch out the Marvel Universe beyond just New York. The first personal villain for Ant-Man and the Wasp would have still been Darren Cross/Yellojacket like the final product but he would be a HYDRA-affiliated S.H.I.E.L.D. loyalist that becomes a crime lord after the events of The Winter Soldier. Elihas Starr might have been the antagonist of the second film instead of his daughter Ava. Scott would have been a supporting character to Hank and Janet, starting off as a thief hired by Darren to steal their suits only to defect and become a loyal ally later on along with his buddies, his family would be saved for the sequel and remain as The Ghost in the first film.

In regards to casting, I don't think Paul Rudd would have been cast as a younger Hank Pym since I imagine that he would be more stern and serious than Scott Lang, a somewhat comedic ex-thief. Rather, I think Marvel would have gone with Joseph Gordon-Levitt as Hank Pym considering his connections to Disney and previous comic book movie experience (The Dark Knight Rises), Evangeline Lilly could do a good Janet as much as she could pull off Hope and looks not too dissimilar to the comics incarnation in terms of physical appearance.

Edited by Chrononaut70 on Sep 11th 2021 at 3:07:54 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#133412: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:56:07 PM

Someone suggested back in the day that Natasha and Clint find a different way than Thanos by each giving up part of their life and satisfy the requirement that way

Not sure how that would work since the stone wants people to take a flying leap but if they had to negotiate with it, it could flesh out the stone as alive in a sense and bloodthirsty

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133413: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:59:37 PM

The TV shows also had Lyrica Okano's Nico Minoru and Jessica Henwick's Colleen Wing. Ms. Marvel and Silk (over at Sony) are getting shows. Maybe Park Seo-joon is playing a very Dawson Cast Amadeus Cho. Certainly a step up when "buff white guy named Chris" was the prominent phenotype, I would think. :-)

Re: change who yeets themself off a cliff: Ah, but that's the Watsonian change. What if the Soul Stone didn't need a Human Sacrifice at all, so we didn't have to do timey-wimey Gamora ball either?

Edited by Synchronicity on Sep 11th 2021 at 3:59:55 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133414: Sep 11th 2021 at 2:09:04 PM

Moving on from Shang-Chi, there are always certain things that fans don't like and want to see redone entirely. If you had the chance to change a specific element or two in the Infinity Saga, what would it be?

Add in a Captain America movie between Age of Ultron and Civil War about Steve's new quartet of Sam, Natasha, Wanda, and Vision tracking down members of the Serpent Society. Something along the lines of what Markus and McFeely had planned before Feige decided to do Civil War. That way, when the Avengers break up in Civil War, there's more impact because we'd gotten a movie with the team Steve had established at the end of Age of Ultron.

Give Wanda and Vision more to do in Civil War. I'd do this by putting her and Vision in Germany with Steve and Sam. I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but Wanda would provide a nice foil in a movie about revenge, so you can contrast her (who started out motivated by revenge but abandoned it) with T'Challa and Zemo (especially the latter, since he's Sokovian like Wanda). Vision could start out pro-Accords, but realize what the Accords mean when he sees how Bucky is being handled and grows disillusioned with them, making him anti-Accords by the airport fight.

I'd also have Wanda and maybe one of the other Avengers on Cap's side get away with him and Bucky for the trip to Siberia, so that Zemo has a curveball thrown into his plans (since someone like Wanda could easily overpower Tony or calm him down before he could attack Bucky).

In Endgame, I'd have Drax be the Guardian to survive the Snap, instead of Rocket. Have him be the comic relief by virtue of his personality, rather than Thor (and play Thor's mental health issues seriously rather than for humor, since they were willing to play Tony's PTSD seriously in Iron Man 3).

Edited by dmcreif on Sep 11th 2021 at 5:15:11 AM

Okey Dokey!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#133415: Sep 11th 2021 at 2:14:10 PM

[up][up]Ah, but then the T.H.A.N.O.S. theory no longer works.

  • Tesseract
  • Hurl your daughter off a cliff
  • Aether
  • Necklace (Eye of Agamotto)
  • Orb
  • Scepter

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
jdeo1997 BLADE Pathfinders from Orion–Cygnus Arm Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
BLADE Pathfinders
#133416: Sep 11th 2021 at 2:21:02 PM

Counterpoint, while the T.H.A.N.O.S theory is funnier with H being "Hurl your loved one/yourself off a cliff (to prevent hurling a loved one/them hurling themselves for you)", you could fulfill it with Heart, be it either sacrificing yourself, striking a deal to sacrifice some aspect, or hurling your daughter off a cliff

Edited by jdeo1997 on Sep 11th 2021 at 5:27:57 AM

Attachments are not the problem, Indifference is. Keelah se'lai
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133417: Sep 11th 2021 at 2:23:46 PM

So Thanos is related to the Mishimas from Tekken then.

There's a strange obsession with throwing family members off cliffs.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#133418: Sep 11th 2021 at 2:28:44 PM

[up]Okay, now I just had the awesome mental image of Thanos as a Tekken Guest Fighter.

Edited by lbssb on Sep 11th 2021 at 2:28:51 AM

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AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#133419: Sep 11th 2021 at 4:27:42 PM

The MCU could use more electronic trance music in its soundtrack.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#133420: Sep 11th 2021 at 5:43:42 PM

Thanos is practically a Devil Gene user anyways.

The legend has returned.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#133421: Sep 11th 2021 at 5:48:44 PM

So, for years I kept wondering why everyone acted like Howard was in on trying to steal Hank's research back in the opening for Ant-man, when I got the impression that he didn't know, but still though Hank should share it.

But re-watching the scene again, he never really denies it, and his demeanour is more similar to someone who got caught and regrets it, than someone who's completely innocent.

I'm not sure why I thought he wasn't part of the plan. I guess I just figured he wasn't the type to steal from others.

There's still the idea that he may have been aware of the Hydra infiltration and deliberately went along with the theft in a way that Hank would learn about, knowing it would send him away from Shield...but as we know, the Hydra part of Shield is not above just killing someone who has what they want, so it's weird that that worked.

But yeah. Howard Stark. Dirty stupid thief.

And it's a damned shame too. Iron Man tech and Pym particles already allowed the Avengers to literally time travel. Tony and Hank (or maybe Hope) working together, they could have created remote controlled suits that could explore even the Quantum realm.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133422: Sep 11th 2021 at 6:54:04 PM

Not sure how (without just dumping someone else off the cliff, I mean) since they established the Soul Stone as requiring a toll.

That. Absolutely that. That's what I would change.

The question is hard because there's actually a lot of things about the Infinity Saga that I would have liked to see done differently. Like, so many things. But if I had to pick just one thing, Planet Refridgerator wouldn't be a thing. Like, at all.

Unwrite Vormir. It only exists to kill female characters for manpain. Find something else to do with the Soul Gem. Let Gamora and Black Widow continue to exist in this franchise.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 11th 2021 at 6:57:19 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133423: Sep 11th 2021 at 6:59:11 PM

You could always just kill off Quill instead.

Its not like anyone would miss him.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#133424: Sep 11th 2021 at 7:03:50 PM

A lot of people would miss him. He's a popular character.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133425: Sep 11th 2021 at 7:06:11 PM

Honestly, reducing a whole-ass character to a purchasing voucher traded in for a plot coupon would still seem gross to me even if it wasn't used exclusively to kill female characters for manpain (while also telling the audience to sympathize with Thanos because he feels really bad about murdering his daughter).

The only way I can see Vormir working is if Gamora's soul, like, entered the Soul Gem. And then this was used to undermine Thanos. At the last second, the Soul Gem guided by Gamora's mind rebels against Thanos and this prevents him from achieving his goals. Gamora still dies, but in a final act of character agency, she takes Thanos with her as his narrative punishment for going through with the sacrifice.

But Thanos is supposed to win Infinity War, so that's a non-starter. Gamora's supposed to die in vain, her whole life reduced to two seconds of her murderer having a sad look on his face, and then be replaced wholesale. It sucks that Quill lost his Gamora but we got him a new Gamora so, y'know, no harm, no foul, right?

Ugh. Vormir is the worst thing the MCU ever wrote. Better to just find some other way to loop the Soul Gem into the story. There's a lot of stuff that I would like to change like "Time traveled to marry Peggy" not being Steve's conclusion, Hope being the main character of Ant-Man, or Peter/Gamora not being a romance, but Vormir takes the cake.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 11th 2021 at 7:09:42 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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