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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#133376: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:58:52 PM

[up][up][up] That plus the wording is consistently just shy of treating the Chinese government as the entirety of China which is a straight-up dogwhistle.

Even the comparison to Mulan is both in really bad taste and is honestly kinda sus. Like, we're really going to treat Shang-Chi, Eternals, and Mulan in the same ballpark because of the Chinese actors up front? The Chinese pandering in Mulan is screamingly obvious from the trailers alone and the fact that there were little to no Asian-Americans involved only makes it more telling.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#133377: Sep 10th 2021 at 9:08:31 PM

On the subject of Shang Chi and Mulan, while comparing it to the 2020 version is obviously ludicrous, I'd argue it actually reminds me of the 1999 version of Mulan. That film was not very popular in the mainland (since to them it was just another drop in the sea of numerous Mulan adaptations they already had), but was a significant event for diasporic Asian Americans like myself who have very different interests in media.

The movie is set in San Francisco, which is a major hub of Asian American immigration and settlement and its cast consists heavily of actors who are popular in the West or Chinese diaspora (Tony Leung is from Hong Kong, which we all know is going through some ch-ch-ch-changes right now, and Michelle Yeoh is from Malaysia and featured prominently in Western works in the past, including projects led by creators who the CCP frowns upon).

That's very different from Mulan 2020, which was staffed primarily by white creatives who did not do the proper research and were attempting to pander to mainland sensibilities by making a poor imitation of historically successful native Chinese genre fiction, and it visibly showed. Shang Chi on the other hand is created by Asian Americans, for us and about us, but mostly treating us as people instead of necessarily just aping trends mainland China likes (which according to my mainland pals would be Steve/Bucky shipping, apparently [lol]).

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 10th 2021 at 2:01:06 PM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#133378: Sep 10th 2021 at 9:21:26 PM

I think that comparison is very on-point. I remember reading articles about how Mulan's characterization in the cartoon movie reflects Asian American feelings of inadequacy compared to the Mainland, which is not the case in the live action remark, in which Mulan is the Paragon of Chinese Femininity (TM). And Shang Chi definitely has that same kind of "underdog energy".

Also, per Synchronicity's post on the last page, while Awkwafina is kind of an "it girl" generally, since she was an Ensemble Dark Horse in Crazy Rich Asians and had a staring role in The Farewell, I don't think it's at all a stretch that by casting her, Marvel was trying to appeal to the audience for those movies (with the understanding that they were chasing less of a Mainland China audience).

Also, tangentially I'm thinking of this tweet from Awkwafina's tv show, especially because Awkwafina's character in Raya is definitely a Spiritual Successor.

Edited by Hodor2 on Sep 10th 2021 at 11:25:04 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#133379: Sep 10th 2021 at 10:54:11 PM

In hindsight, if Marvel really wanted to go full-steam ahead at mainland pandering they did a questionable job at it. Picking a Japanese-American for a director for example is already a terrible idea to appeal to the mainland CCP if you really want to. Mind you I still question the wisdom of doing that for entirely different reasons (a film so specifically about chinese culture directed by a japanese-american man?)

Edited by Gaon on Sep 10th 2021 at 10:54:51 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#133380: Sep 10th 2021 at 11:08:10 PM

Haven't watched it yet, but my guess is that this film is less about the Chinese American experience specifically and more about the Asian American diaspora as a whole that happens to focus on Chinese characters.

Of course, Chinese Americans, Japanese Americans, Korean Americans, Vietnamese Americans, Filipino Americans, and so on will all have somewhat unique specificities of experience from each other due to the differences between their native cultures, but there's no doubt some degree of flattening has occurred among us as a result of white European dominance. For example I probably do have a lot more in common with a Japanese American than I would with a mainlander who spent their entire life in China.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#133381: Sep 10th 2021 at 11:15:30 PM

Fair point.

Anyhow, by all accounts it seems to have worked according to the chinese-american opinions I saw, but the initial choice does still befuddle me to some level (there's no shortage of chinese-american directors after all).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133382: Sep 10th 2021 at 11:39:55 PM

On an unrelated note, do you think we’ll move on from high-school Spidey after No Way Home?

Especially because the NWH trailer puts the least emphasis on the high-school setting compared to the prior movies so I wonder if we’re gonna move on from this afterwards.

Ya know assuming we get more Spidey MCU movies.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 10th 2021 at 11:43:18 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#133383: Sep 10th 2021 at 11:42:36 PM

I think Feige mentioned once that he wanted to do a high school trilogy and then move onto a young adult Spidey, so Sony willing that might be what comes next.

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#133384: Sep 11th 2021 at 4:14:09 AM

RE: "Shang-Chi was made for China": Uhhh, no offense, but that doesn't sound right? Maybe Feige just wanted to produce a martial arts movie and raise awareness of obscure Marvel characters? I mean, before he got his movie, Shang-Chi was like, what, B-List or C-List?

RE: MCU Spider-Man young adult trilogy uncertainty: I loathe that we're back to casting doubt that Marvel and Sony might not team up again for more Spider-Man...sad

RE: MCU release dates for 2024: Anyone want to bet that one of those dates will be for Deadpool 3?

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Sep 11th 2021 at 10:31:37 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#133385: Sep 11th 2021 at 4:31:27 AM

I'm still waiting to see any justification for the idea that Eternals was made to pander to China.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 11th 2021 at 4:31:45 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#133386: Sep 11th 2021 at 4:46:54 AM

> On an unrelated note, do you think we’ll move on from high-school Spidey after No Way Home?

I feel like Peter will go from being a student in high school to working in a high school,it comes with the reluctance to let Peter Parker grow up,keep the setting (high school) but occasionally change the premise (replace Uncle Ben,no Mary Jane ecta)

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
jdeo1997 BLADE Pathfinders from Orion–Cygnus Arm Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
BLADE Pathfinders
#133387: Sep 11th 2021 at 5:10:51 AM

[up][up]If Eternals is China-pandering due to the director and one cast member, it's also North-pandering due to having two of the Starks in it's cast

Edited by jdeo1997 on Sep 11th 2021 at 8:11:10 AM

Attachments are not the problem, Indifference is. Keelah se'lai
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#133388: Sep 11th 2021 at 5:48:53 AM

Apparently Shang Chi was planned all the way back during the first bunch of MCU movies but didn’t manage to happen until now

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#133389: Sep 11th 2021 at 5:50:41 AM

Huh. Shang-Chi's been around since the 1970's? That's neat, I assumed he was around for a lot shorter.

The legend has returned.
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#133390: Sep 11th 2021 at 6:22:44 AM

He was originally "inspired by" the Bruce Lee style martial arts films of the 70s and has hung around ever since. He's never quite made it to the mainstream before but has had a couple of solos and some team stuff including stints with the Agents of Atlas and Heroes for Hire.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#133391: Sep 11th 2021 at 8:01:18 AM

Shang Chi was part of the original Phase 1 plans yeah, this was back when Marvel was facing off bankruptcy and needed a film win to rescue then but they were running short of characters they actually owned.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#133392: Sep 11th 2021 at 9:33:35 AM

Stan Lee apparently had a (somewhat unexpected given he didn't create him) fondness for the character and tried to get a film off the ground with Brandon Lee (son of Bruce Lee) during the 80's. So, it's been a long road.

Edited by Gaon on Sep 11th 2021 at 9:34:00 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133393: Sep 11th 2021 at 9:41:41 AM

This "pandering to China" conversation surrounding Shang-Chi is weird to me because I was there for the Iron Fist discourse. Iron Fist was a very contentious character on account of being Mighty Whitey played unapologetically straight. There was a movement to race-lift him with an Asian actor in order to downplay the racially problematic nature of the character.

I remember, at the time, thinking that they could just not make an Iron Fist show. If we want an actual Asian person to be Marvel's premiere kung fu character, Shang-Chi: The Master of Kung Fu is right there. Marvel should just make a Shang-Chi show instead.

The counterargument I kept hearing at the time was that Marvel can never make a Shang-Chi film or TV show, or even have him appear as a supporting character because of his connection to Fu Manchu. Shang-Chi, as a character, is legally off the table, forever. So they have to make Iron Fist work somehow.

Now, years later in the wake of Shang-Chi's first movie, the MCU has their first non-Netflix kung fu superhero and they did it exactly the way I said they should. And people are mad that having a Canadian actor of Chinese descent play him is pandering to the Chinese government. Somehow.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#133394: Sep 11th 2021 at 9:44:21 AM

Eh. People will always find something to be mad about.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to shake my fist at some clouds. They are floating wrong.

....and that...is unacceptable.

One Strip! One Strip!
Krory Since: Aug, 2012
#133395: Sep 11th 2021 at 9:46:40 AM

People really don't want to acknowledge that the Diaspora is basically a culture unto itself.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133396: Sep 11th 2021 at 10:39:22 AM

People don't want their comfy black and white world views challenged.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#133397: Sep 11th 2021 at 11:29:09 AM

Before anyone asks, yes I know that the Shang-Chi movie has been in Development Hell for quite a while since the 1980s no less with Brandon Lee even being attached to star at one point until his untimely death in 1993. Yuen Woo-Ping was going to direct the film with Ang Lee producing but this fell by the wayside and as others pointed out it was going to be part of Phase 1 but that didn't happen. He almost could have been part of Phase 2 or 3 had The Avengers (2012) inserted a post-credits scene with Shang-Chi instead of incorporating him with the Mandarin, which caused DMG to chicken out and leave the film.

Edited by Chrononaut70 on Sep 11th 2021 at 11:37:42 AM

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#133399: Sep 11th 2021 at 12:57:21 PM

Tbh, the just-before-release wave of “no one is going to be interested in this movie” buzz Shang-Chi got just struck me as the exact kind of thing all minority led major films tend to get. Along with the typical “this is being made for the wrong reasons” buzz. And I’m glad the movie is overcoming it.

Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#133400: Sep 11th 2021 at 1:05:40 PM

Moving on from Shang-Chi, there are always certain things that fans don't like and want to see redone entirely. If you had the chance to change a specific element or two in the Infinity Saga, what would it be?


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