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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#133351: Sep 10th 2021 at 7:25:30 PM

Yeah. At the risk of being rude, Chrononaut's criteria for Shang Chi being "made for China" seems to amount of "has Chinese (American or British or Canadian) actors".

Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#133352: Sep 10th 2021 at 7:27:22 PM

By made for China, I mean that the film has an almost Chinese cast, has Chinese cultural elements and the film was heavily marketed in the Middle Kingdom. Films that have Chinese actors but don't necessarily have a big focus on their culture don't qualify as an example.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#133353: Sep 10th 2021 at 7:27:23 PM

At the risk of being rude, Chrononaut's criteria for Shang Chi being "made for China" seems to amount of "has Chinese (American or British or Canadian) actors".

This is like half the internet's criteria when they complain about stuff supposedly being "pandering to China".

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#133354: Sep 10th 2021 at 7:31:21 PM

The Chinese diaspora obviously has Chinese culture too...

Also, citation needed on the movie being "heavily marketed in the Middle Kingdom".

Edited by Hodor2 on Sep 10th 2021 at 9:32:46 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133355: Sep 10th 2021 at 7:33:13 PM

The latter Transformers movies are infamous for their deliberate pandering to China. Chinese audiences hated it.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#133356: Sep 10th 2021 at 7:33:34 PM

By made for China, I mean that the film has an almost Chinese cast...

In other words, it has a single actor of Chinese descent in a prominent role and is directed by a Chinese woman.

I don't think that qualifies as an "almost" Chinese cast...

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#133357: Sep 10th 2021 at 7:38:15 PM

In fairness, I think that descriptor was about Shang Chi, not The Eternals.

But I am side-eying the fact that Gemma Chan and Simu Liu are being cited as evidence of "pandering to China" as opposed to say Tony Leung and Michelle Yeoh. The latter are leading actors in Mainland Chinese films but the former just happen to be actors of Chinese ancestry (not to mention that anyone playing Shang Chi kind has to be of Chinese ancestry).

Edited by Hodor2 on Sep 10th 2021 at 9:48:16 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#133358: Sep 10th 2021 at 7:53:56 PM

With Shang-Chi, there's the industrial side and the creative side. I doubt the project of Shang-Chi was conceived without the executives being sold a project that could carve a piece of the lucrative chinese market. Now, creatively, by all accounts (not mine, can't see the film with COVID-19 going on) the finished film was very much about the chinese-american experience more than any sort of perceived "chinese pandering". My guess would be that from a executive stand-point the pitch was to reproduce the success of Black Panther with the asian-american public and also to reach the Chinese market allá what Kung Fu Panda ended up being (largely by accident, mind you, the first film didn't have much pretense of being a big chinese market piece and it seemed to surprise everybody when it did). The money men (to borrow a parlance from Westworld) are a cynical bunch, so there's no doubt in my mind they would have loved to make this a prime product for the chinese market.

But, again, executives ultimately don't make the film (in theory) and the finished product (allegedly) seems largely unconcerned with this whole shindig and is much more a tale of asian-american diaspora.

Eternals I can't see from any standpoint as "Chinese pandering". There's two Chinese(-descended) people in the cast, and that's it. By that logic John Wick is chinese pandering (Keanu Reeves is partly chinese).

Edited by Gaon on Sep 10th 2021 at 7:54:35 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133359: Sep 10th 2021 at 7:56:09 PM

By that logic, I am Chinese-pandering because I ate Chinese take-out once.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#133360: Sep 10th 2021 at 7:56:37 PM

I always knew that your true loyalty was to the Middle Kingdom, Fighteer.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133361: Sep 10th 2021 at 7:57:50 PM

The only thing I'm loyal to with "Middle" in the name is Middle-Earth.

More seriously, just because a work has ethnic actors or is set in a foreign country doesn't mean it's "pandering" to people of that ethnicity. We're supposed to be beyond that. What is actually Chinese pandering is when a film goes out of its way to laud the virtues of China and its government... like certain (all?) Michael Bay movies.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 10th 2021 at 10:59:51 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#133362: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:14:33 PM

By pandering to China I mean that a company tries to be in good graces with the CCP and claim as much money from the Middle Kingdom as possible either by making a film that has a mostly all-Chinese cast, cast a Chinese actor in an important role or portray China as unambiguously good (in spite of the really messed up stuff that happens in the country).

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#133363: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:18:02 PM

Why keep calling China the "Middle Kingdom"?

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#133364: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:18:36 PM

[up][up]It's messed up that you think that casting a Chinese (or apparently also actors with any Chinese ancestry) is itself a proof/evidence that the movie is pandering to China.

And while I assume you think that the existence of Shang Chi being given a movie is in-principle evidence of pandering to China (which yeah, probably is somewhat true), who did you think would be cast as Shang Chi, if not someone with Chinese ancestry?

Edited by Hodor2 on Sep 10th 2021 at 10:24:11 AM

Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#133365: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:24:52 PM

Well, there's a difference between making a film with a mostly East Asian/Chinese cast and a film that is made specifcially to appeal to the CCP/China. Crazy Rich Asians has a Chinese cast and director but it was based on a Singaporean novel and it's not necessarily meant to appeal to Mainland China. Similarly, The Joy Luck Club does have characters from China but it's An Immigrant's Tale story that could swapped out for any other group (real or fictional) and it was made before China became an important movie market.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#133366: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:26:48 PM

So uh on what basis do you think either Shang Chi or the Eternals are pandering to China?

Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#133367: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:27:37 PM

I think it's a waste of time even dealing with this topic.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#133368: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:28:05 PM

Shang-Chi also has another audience target to consider: The Chinese-American audience (and to a lesser extent, Asian American audience). And Shang-Chi really needed heavy revisions to the comic book source simply because of how prevalent the questionable stereotypes are (including Shang-Chi himself). It's also telling how Shang-Chi is introduced in a Chinese-American society before the plot really starts moving, from disappointed parents' high expectations to heavy emphasis on family support to well, our ABCs.

If it was solely pandering to mainland China, it would have hired actors that Chinese people would consider to be super attractive. According to them, Simu Liu and Awkwafina are not exactly the ideal choice to play Shang-Chi or Kathy because they are considered "average-looking" at best. But for me and many other Chinese-Americans, the leads are more relatable to us because of it.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133369: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:29:46 PM

[up][up]...You're the one making the accusations; people are just asking you to elaborate on your opinions. "Pandering" is a rather loaded word. Mulan (2020), yes, Disney was very blatant about that one. But Shang-Chi appears to be a diaspora story through and through.

I said this elsewhere but I would be surprised if Disney hadn't already made note of the mainland's lack of enthusiasm for films that are hits with the Chinese diaspora like Crazy Rich Asians and The Farewell when they greenlit this project.

Edited by Synchronicity on Sep 10th 2021 at 10:31:01 AM

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#133370: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:29:49 PM

[up][up][up]You brought it up, though.

Defending a point until others have poked several obvious, clear and well-argued holes in your side and then saying "this is a waste of time" just shows how weak your argument was to begin with.

Edited by ArthurEld on Sep 10th 2021 at 8:30:08 AM

Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#133371: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:33:49 PM

Fair enough. Shang-Chi has the advantage of being a diaspora story as opposed to something like Mulan.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133372: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:37:44 PM

Plus its actually a well-made movie compared to Mulan.

Yeeesh the latter's a mess.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#133373: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:40:38 PM

[up][up]At this point, it seems like you're simply making arguments in bad faith and then when it is overwhelmingly obvious that you are wrong, you say "fair enough" and try to move on as if that makes up for your initially inflammatory and incorrect takes.

Or, as this practice is known more succinctly, trolling.

Edited by ArthurEld on Sep 10th 2021 at 8:43:31 AM

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#133374: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:42:28 PM

Mulan (2020) suffers from not having enough input from Chinese-Americans (or really any Chinese that has knowledge and respect for their traditions and culture, especially regarding to the Ballad of Mulan).

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#133375: Sep 10th 2021 at 8:50:46 PM

QI MIDICHLORIANS

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 10th 2021 at 8:52:10 AM


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