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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#133276: Sep 8th 2021 at 10:20:31 PM

That's just how it goes in Hollywood. Things need to go through a long process of people greenlighting them, and if even one person along the way says "no", it's dead, killed, try again. Tons of amazing shows and movies sell and make money but then are canceled without ever being put into actual production, and will never see the light of day. A writer can make a living without getting a single one of their works put to film.

Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#133277: Sep 8th 2021 at 10:31:10 PM

From new Cumberbatch's interview:

  • The Doctor Strange sequel shot in London during the height of the pandemic in late 2020 and early 2021. "I lost count of how many lockdowns we actually filmed through," Cumberbatch says. "With this government-approved gold standard testing and tracing and temperature taking and PCR and lateral flow tests. But it worked. And 500-plus crew came back after Christmas, and there was not one single positive test. We never stopped it. I got taken off, because of someone near me getting a false positive. But that was it. People made such sacrifices. Some of their children were going to school, and they weren't necessarily going to be sleeping in the same part of the house, or even in the same house. I was really, really blown away by that."
  • This past fall, Cumberbatch arrived in Atlanta to shoot Doctor Strange's scenes in Spider-Man: No Way Home, in which his character casts a spell that will make the world forget Holland's Peter Parker is a superhero. "There's a close relationship," Cumberbatch says of Strange and Spider-Man. "They're neighborhood superheroes, and they've had an experience or two. They've got history. It might be the case that Peter asks me to help him do something? I think I'm allowed to say that much. I help him fill in his tax returns. That's what I do."

The first bit is new, because it was previously assumed they stopped production several times. It turns out they did not.

As far as FFH is concerned, I believe people are overthinking that trailer scene. They just both screwed up.

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#133278: Sep 8th 2021 at 10:50:06 PM

Oh, I'm sure people are overthinking that trailer. People are way overthinking that and anything to do with Doc Strange 2.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#133279: Sep 8th 2021 at 11:00:43 PM

People have been overthinking literally every single entry in Phase 4 so far.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133280: Sep 9th 2021 at 4:04:45 AM

First, it was the Mephisto theories in WandaVision. Then it was the people who were convinced that He Who Remains sensed Wanda becoming Scarlet Witch because of coincidental editing that causes certain emotional beats to happen at similar timestamps in the finales to WandaVision and Loki. Now it's people convinced Wanda will be a villain in DSMoM and that the X-Men and Illuminati, etc. will appear there.

Edited by dmcreif on Sep 9th 2021 at 7:05:13 AM

Okey Dokey!
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#133281: Sep 9th 2021 at 5:56:44 AM

Yeah, the theorycrafting and rumor-milling has gotten absolutely obnoxious this year - [up] is only scratching the surface of everything I've seen - and even worse has been the near-literal frothing people have gotten into when said theories turn out wrong. The last year's revealed quite a lot about the MCU fandom - people who clearly have never done this kind of serialized media before and can't handle it, people who are provenly only invested for the sake of the FOMO treadmill, people who will literally cheer on fanservice-stroking on par with a Soap Opera because that's clearly all the MCU is good for - and it's honestly left me really sour and cynical about everything. Not in a "I expected better from you" way because I know better than that, but in a "God why are you like this" way.

On a lighter note, that BTS info on New Warriors is doing a fantastic job proving that Milana Vayntrub was perfectly cast as Squirrel Girl. Horrible shame one (likely homophobic and power-tripping) guy killed the whole thing, hopefully the MCU gives Vayntrub another go.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133282: Sep 9th 2021 at 7:08:15 AM

The most amusing recurring spat I see on MCU twitter is someone saying something like “the lighting and cinematography of the MCU are overall kind of flat and can be improved” and bringing out a legion of fans defending the films’ grayness out of the woodwork in the process.

Krory Since: Aug, 2012
#133283: Sep 9th 2021 at 7:12:03 AM

That's such a weird thing to defend. Shang-Chi is the perfect example, too. Bill Pope shot Scott Pilgrim and the Matrix. Dude knows how to bring the style. When he works Marvel? Dull sludge. There's a cooperate mandate somewhere in post production, I'm sure.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#133284: Sep 9th 2021 at 7:13:18 AM

I'm guessing the dull colours are a cheap alternative

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133285: Sep 9th 2021 at 7:20:14 AM

There's a part of me that thinks the final battle of Endgame really should've taken place in broad sunlight without Sanctuary II blocking it out. Certainly would make it easier to follow things, though on the other hand, they probably needed that darker lighting so that there's more contrast for things like the Sling Ring portal wall opening or Wanda using her powers when she duels Thanos. And they might've wanted to contrast it from the Battle of Wakanda.

Okey Dokey!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133286: Sep 9th 2021 at 7:33:48 AM

I think they just wanted the dark lighting to make it look dark and serious. This was the grand finale of everything that the first three phases were building up to, so they wanted it to look like the last stand of men against Mordor or something. Maximum grittiness, maximum stakes, maximum epicness.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 9th 2021 at 7:34:49 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#133287: Sep 9th 2021 at 7:39:17 AM

They still need to learn how to make it darker without it looking dull or making people wonder just what the hell is going on.

Wake me up at your own risk.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133288: Sep 9th 2021 at 7:51:25 AM

I mean, that last one's a problem that modern cinematography has with fight scenes in general. Basically every fight scene ever these days is shot in shaky cam with a million cuts per second to disguise every single scrap of action actually taking place.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133289: Sep 9th 2021 at 7:51:38 AM

Yeah, the theorycrafting and rumor-milling has gotten absolutely obnoxious this year - [up] is only scratching the surface of everything I've seen - and even worse has been the near-literal frothing people have gotten into when said theories turn out wrong.

I guess there's also the speculation about No Way Home, when I consider the people theorizing about Matt being Peter's lawyer from the stingers of Far From Home (they're setting themselves up for disappointment).

people who will literally cheer on fanservice-stroking on par with a Soap Opera because that's clearly all the MCU is good for

I can see why a cynic might look at things like Evan Peters as Fake Pietro, the Loki variants and the Thanoscopter (to give examples) like this.

I mean, that last one's a problem that modern cinematography has with fight scenes in general. Basically every fight scene ever these days is shot in shaky cam with a million cuts per second to disguise every single scrap of action actually taking place.

This is why John Wick gets wins just by doing long steadicam takes.

Edited by dmcreif on Sep 9th 2021 at 10:52:33 AM

Okey Dokey!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133290: Sep 9th 2021 at 7:54:40 AM

I'm just looking forward to when Multiverse of Madness is behind us because that's pretty much the centerpiece for all of the bizarre and outlandish theorycrafting. I hammer this point a lot but I feel like people forget that this is a Dr. Strange movie.

To hear the theorycrafters tell it, the film will be about Spider-Man, Loki, and the Scarlet Witch teaming up to rescue Wanda's children from the clutches of Mephisto.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133291: Sep 9th 2021 at 7:57:29 AM

They still need to learn how to make it darker without it looking dull or making people wonder just what the hell is going on.

Helm's Deep holds up superbly in this regard. The whole thing is blue, but there's so much contrast so you can actually see things and a good sense of geography about where everyone is. There were quite a lot of potshots comparing it to Game of Thrones season 8 when that was coming out.

Basically every fight scene ever these days is shot in shaky cam with a million cuts per second to disguise every single scrap of action actually taking place.

I don't know if they just make more action scenes than movie musicals, but you notice this with dance choreography, too. It was a sentiment that I saw around with In the Heights, where there was just so much cutting and so much focus on the singers' faces vs. the choreo (and I liked that movie).

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133292: Sep 9th 2021 at 8:03:05 AM

To hear the theorycrafters tell it, the film will be about Spider-Man, Loki, and the Scarlet Witch teaming up to rescue Wanda's children from the clutches of Mephisto.

There's theorycrafting, then there's "passing fanfiction off as theories".

Okey Dokey!
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#133293: Sep 9th 2021 at 8:19:26 AM

I'm pretty sure at this point the duller color palette is keeping to a market-tested blockbuster vibe, and I do think there's been enough cases of high-color high-concept stuff turning people off that I kinda get it. Still sucks hard though.

Only makes it worse with Eternals because it's hard to tell how much is corporate style and how much is Zhao's own style relying heavily on natural lighting and naturalism.

[up][up][up] Yeah that's pretty much what I meant by the soap opera remark. Some people the way I've seen it would've gladly accepted Wandavision completely derailing it's plot for the sake of Mephisto and Foxverse Quicksilver setup. They anticipate MCU things to hunt for hints for the next MCU things and I just can't vibe with that. I love me the hell out of the fanservice but I also appreciate good storytelling. It's not like the MCU is anything complicated.

[up] Yeah the Fanon is out of bloody control and like I said I legit think some people can't actually handle it, as evident by Ralph Bohner and "subvert expectations" becoming really toxic-ass memes.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133294: Sep 9th 2021 at 8:28:58 AM

Helm's Deep holds up superbly in this regard. The whole thing is blue, but there's so much contrast so you can actually see things and a good sense of geography about where everyone is. There were quite a lot of potshots comparing it to Game of Thrones season 8 when that was coming out.

Yeah, Helm's Deep was very well-lit. Modern auteurs seem to think that's a criticism of the film. "Why is it so bright when it's supposed to be the middle of the night?!"

It's so bright so the audience can see what's fucking happening, is why. Blue lighting to indicate darkness is superior to shooting in actual darkness because you're not supposed to conceal what's happening from the people watching the movie.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133295: Sep 9th 2021 at 8:32:25 AM

Yeah that's pretty much what I meant by the soap opera remark. Some people the way I've seen it would've gladly accepted WandaVision completely derailing it's plot for the sake of Mephisto and Foxverse Quicksilver setup. They anticipate MCU things to hunt for hints for the next MCU things and I just can't vibe with that. I love me the hell out of the fanservice but I also appreciate good storytelling. It's not like the MCU is anything complicated.

See this Collider article that pretty much mocks these people.

So imagine my utter rage and disappointment when WandaVision turned out to be a grief drama. UGH. FEELINGS. If I wanted to watch Elizabeth Olsen in a TV series about grief, I would watch Sorry for Your Loss, which I haven’t, but I’m just saying it’s an option. But my superhero shows are supposed to be about giving me more superheroes. It’s supposed to be a teaser machine where instead of enjoying the current narrative, I need to be sold on the next narrative. What does Wanda’s emotional state possibly tell me about whether or not Mephisto is going to come along later?

By treating Wanda’s story as one about grief, loss, and healing, Marvel denied me the chance to connect my comic book knowledge to the movies. Do you think we read comic books for fun? NO. We read them so we can amass a bunch of knowledge about storylines and then feel secure that we’re ahead of the curve when the movies come along to repeat those storylines. I haven’t been burned this badly by Marvel since The Mandarin turned out to be just an actor in Iron Man 3. Why would you play with my expectations, Marvel? To surprise me? To bring me joy? The only joy I feel is when my fan theories are proved correct so that people know I’m smart.

He gets it.

Yeah the Fanon is out of bloody control and like I said I legit think some people can't actually handle it, as evident by Ralph Bohner and "subvert expectations" becoming really toxic-ass memes.

Like, the idea of Bohner and using Evan Peters is that they wanted the audience to feel what it was like to be in Wanda's position. Like, you need a fake Pietro. Any silver-haired man showing up at Wanda's door claiming to be Pietro, and Wanda would believe it. But it had to be Evan Peters or Aaron Taylor-Johnson, because otherwise the viewer would've known Wanda was being fooled. By using a familiar face, the audience is sold on the possibility that this could be her brother or maybe a Variant. So that when it's revealed that nope, he's just an imposter all along, the audience goes through the five stages of grief that Wanda has been going through for the entire show.

Edited by dmcreif on Sep 9th 2021 at 11:32:49 AM

Okey Dokey!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133296: Sep 9th 2021 at 8:45:04 AM

The point of using the wrong Pietro was to make Pietro seem wrong. It was supposed to be an unsettling perversion of the character in a way that some rando actor wouldn't be. To feel, at once, comfortably familiar yet unquestionably false. Evan Peters was frankly an inspired casting choice.

See this Collider article that pretty much mocks these people.

This Pitch Meeting also makes some great cracks about it.

"Also there's going to be this nosy neighbor character Agnes, right? And she's a little mysterious. Something's going on with her." "Agnes, huh? Is she Agatha Harkness?" "That's... yeah. That's kinda supposed to be a reveal later." "Well, listen, if you give people some down time, they're going to theorize. That's just how it works." "Hmm. ...I'm going to make you pay for that."

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133297: Sep 9th 2021 at 9:02:27 AM

I kind of wonder if the response might've been different had the release schedule gone as initially planned, ie. Falcon before Wanda minus pandemic. Less lockdown kookiness and projection onto a more "grounded" Marvel release.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#133298: Sep 9th 2021 at 9:19:54 AM

[up][up][up] One, I never saw that Collider article and it has me howling. So thanks for that. [lol]

Two, it had to be Peters. Cast ATJ and you firmly set the expectation that it's actually Pietro, and IMO it actually would be cruel to set that up and then sweep the rug under with an Identical Stranger route (assuming nothing else changes). Cast literally anyone else and you firmly set the expectation that it isn't Pietro. Only Peters works, because it's only with Peters that you get to set people's meta-knowledge against them, which lets it do what you say.

[up] Only a little bit because in the sense of people not being pandemic stir-crazy. Like Tobias says it's MoM that's the "problem", because that set everyone up to expect multiverse stuff everywhere and Wandavision was always billed as leading into it.

If anything really messed things up it was this shot in the Loki teasers of the devil church mural. What was ultimately just a symbolic nod to Loki's nature every nerd and nerd site (even the one I just grabbed the pic from) read as setting up Mephisto to be the next Thanos.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#133299: Sep 9th 2021 at 9:22:26 AM

Probably not. The insane theory craft didn't start this year, really. It started with Far From Home, and the early info we got that Strange would be in Spidey 3 and Wanda would be in Strange 2 (which has the word "multiverse" in its name, but whose meaning we have no info about yet). The growing theorycraft sparked as the result of fans trying to built this narrative in which all of those separate movies/shows were thus actually one plot designed to cosmic retcon X things from X other movies they liked into the MCU.

That's one of the reasons the Bohner thing went down so badly. From episode 1 of Wandavision, fans were looking for any clue that that show was actually a vehicle to introduce the Foxmen into the MCU which would lead to a bit retcon in Strange 2 and also Spider-Man is there and yadda yadda yadda, and thought they were being vindicated when Fox Pietro showed up, even though the actual reason for it was precisely what Tobias explained above. As we bring up a lot in this thread, they forgot that it was a show about Wanda first and foremost.

It got to the point where FFH is kind of doing that, but not to the insane extent to which the fan theories wanted it to, so those fans are disappointed and they're projecting their wish fulfillment onto Strange 2 instead.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 9th 2021 at 9:24:43 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133300: Sep 9th 2021 at 9:32:19 AM

because that set everyone up to expect multiverse stuff everywhere and Wandavision was always billed as leading into it.

Not helped by the fact that early on, the fake commercials were meant to be Wanda's subconscious reaching out to Strange, but they changed that to keep the focus on Wanda.

Okey Dokey!

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