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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#133201: Sep 7th 2021 at 12:49:22 PM

She... she was working with HYDRA whose biggest threats were the Avengers. Believing she wouldn't know Hulk's capabilities is beyond unreasonable.

She decides to go after him while saying she's going to "finish the plan" and "I want the big one." That's not "let's incapacitate this guy who isn't involved in the fight yet" it's clearly "I'm weaponizing the Hulk."

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Cross (Don’t ask)
#133202: Sep 7th 2021 at 12:55:12 PM

Her tone when she speaks up upon showing up at Avengers Tower with Steve is one that strikes me as more of, "I know, I caused you guys a lot of trouble," than "I know I caused you to go on a rampage that likely resulted in civilian casualties."

Wanda (and Pietro) were part of organization that months(?) prior tried murder millions of people and trying kill Tony Stark potentially taking down innocent people or at very least those uninvolved with her reasons for wanting revenge. Don't think those two are as exclusive as you seem to think.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#133203: Sep 7th 2021 at 12:55:44 PM

There's what the audience knows and what the characters know, and I doubt Wanda knows everything the audience knows.

There is no reason she wouldn't.

That's where my assumption that Wanda doesn't know the Hulk ran several hundred miles to attack a city comes from. And there's the question of whether or not anyone told her what the Hulk did after she hexed him. And the fact that she probably didn't have access to any T Vs while on Ultron's base.

She has access to a guy who can connect to the Internet in seconds with his brain.

Her tone when she speaks up upon showing up at Avengers Tower with Steve is one that strikes me as more of, "I know, I caused you guys a lot of trouble," than "I know I caused you to go on a rampage that likely resulted in civilian casualties."

To me, that sounds like Wanda downplaying the severity of what she did not being unaware of what her hexing the Hulk did.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#133204: Sep 7th 2021 at 12:56:14 PM

Yeah, I too don't get why this whitewashing is even a thing.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#133205: Sep 7th 2021 at 1:19:43 PM

This is just how it is with superhero media. Wanda doesn't go to prison for setting the Hulk upon Johannesburg. Tony doesn't go to prison for building an unstable weapon that misfired and destroyed Sokovia because he left it unattended for five minutes. The Avengers don't go to prison for being an American militia conducting violent operations on foreign soil without any official recognition as a legitimate peacekeeping organization or government oversight. (I mean, they did but....)

Superheroes are Cowboy Cops. They're guided by nothing more than their own personal moral compass, running around yelling Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right! so they can catch bad guys that the law-abiding cops just can't, and it's generally agreed that they should have the authority to do that despite their disregard for process or civil conduct. They answer to no one, break any laws that get in their way, and they get things done. We, the audience, are meant to not get too caught up in how fucky all of that is because... well, it's how the genre works.

A superhero who does things by the book is just a cop. Or an idealization of what a cop should be, anyways. And people don't read these comics or watch these movies to see cops filling out paperwork. They want to watch Captain Fighter Man break Vile Vicious's jaw. They don't want to have to think about the legal ramifications of Captain Fighter Man breaking and entering in Vile Vicious's private residence in order to reach that point.

Indeed, the art of story craft is about keeping the audience so excited about the jaw break that they don't even think about the breaking and entering.

But it feels different when you're not supposed to overlook the crimes a character commits. Because that's when the other shoe comes down. Superheroes are Cowboy Cops. They Screw the Rules to do what's right. But sometimes they also Screw the Rules to do what's wrong. The Avengers are not accountable to a governing body when they're saving the world. And when they aren't saving the world, when they commit crimes? They're still not accountable to a governing body. The only person they're accountable to is the omniscient hand of the writer.

Wanda pays for her crimes with personal loss. She has never and will never see a day in court for her crimes; she's an Avenger now, and Avengers are above the law even for crimes they committed before being Avengers. Instead, she suffered karmically for them through the death of her brother Pietro. This is meant to be seen as fair.

Tony, meanwhile, pays for his crimes with resolve to do better. When he screws up, he feels really bad about it and tries not to screw up like that again. The idea that maybe this guy who built Ultron should not be allowed to continue building weapons of mass destruction in his garage to deploy to foreign countries whenever he sees fit? Unthinkable. What are you, a Communist? Iron Man is above the law. But he hears your concerns and will try not to blow up a country again.

And that can create some dissonance with fans. Because we are meant to take it on faith that these people should be above the law because they simply know better. They always make the right decisions, they always get the bad guys, and they never hurt anybody to do it. They should be allowed to operate like this because they're ultimately right, always. But having them do things like this challenges that faith and can make their narrative-given legal immunity feel unsatisfying.

But it's all just... part of the genre, I suppose.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 7th 2021 at 1:24:52 AM

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dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133206: Sep 7th 2021 at 1:31:21 PM

Yeah. At the end of the day, Johannesburg happened because the writers wanted to do a Hulk rampage. That's just the Doylist explanation.

Tony doesn't go to prison for building an unstable weapon that misfired and destroyed Sokovia because he left it unattended for five minutes. The Avengers don't go to prison for being an American militia conducting violent operations on foreign soil without any official recognition as a legitimate peacekeeping organization or government oversight. (I mean, they did but....)

I think there's an argument to be made that Tony's pro-Accords stance in CACW had some shades of "oversight would've kept him from getting as far as he did with creating Ultron."

Okey Dokey!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#133207: Sep 7th 2021 at 1:35:25 PM

But it's all just... part of the genre, I suppose.

In my opinion it’s arguably more the American view of the genre. In other settings like in My Hero Academia, superhero registration with the government is normal, while in Marvel it sets off a Civil War or two.

Which is also true of a lot things in America. tongue

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133208: Sep 7th 2021 at 1:52:47 PM

[up] That America-centrism also explains why Johannesburg wasn't in Ross's slideshow when he presented the Accords to the Avengers.

Okey Dokey!
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#133209: Sep 7th 2021 at 1:53:40 PM

[up]Also Harlem wasn't in the slideshow... probably cause Ross himself was responsible for that one.

Edited by lbssb on Sep 7th 2021 at 1:53:59 AM

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#133210: Sep 7th 2021 at 1:53:56 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]This is what makes the Punisher fascinating to me as a concept. Realistically, no, he's a mass-murderer and domestic terrorist who should be captured and executed for his crimes. But in comic book land (or television land) we, the reader, go in with the expectation that A) the guys he kill totally deserve it and B) Punisher uses magic bullets that somehow never ever hit an innocent target and he's always 100% right about the people he goes after. It's nonsense, but we go in with that suspension of disbelief, and at a superficial level it delivers the cathartic fantasy of watching Shitstain McSleazebag get reduced to a pile of red pulp, or Mr. Untouchable Mob Boss who thinks he's invincible die ignominiously like a dumb animal. Obviously there's more to the story than that, like examinations of how Frank is no hero, but it's definitely the narrative purpose the character is built around.

I just rewatched the first episode of his Netflix show and man, those construction workers really needed to just fucking die and man, did it feel good watching it finally happen. It's a really good hour-long Batman Cold Open embodiment of the Punisher as a concept. Set up a bunch of assholes and make you want to see them get pulped, and then have Frank come in and deliver. tongue

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Sep 7th 2021 at 4:57:27 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#133211: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:01:47 PM

Punisher is a grayer and more muddled area. Namely because suspending disbelief for things like sorcerers in spandex hurling colored fireballs at each other is a simpler affair: those don't exist in real life (allegedly). But fanatics armed to the teeth waging their own mass-murdering crusade against what they perceive crime do, in fact, exist in real life (in fact they're almost endemic).

It's a minefield, to put it mildly.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133212: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:08:56 PM

Granted Punisher’s prolly the most useless superhero.

It’s not like he accomplishes anything.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#133213: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:10:28 PM

Oh yes, it's an absolutely futile war against an immortal concept. While it's a little on-the-nose, the first episode of the Netflix series has him reading Moby Dick while laying in bed. tongue

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#133214: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:10:28 PM

[up][up] In comics, no superhero ever accomplishes anything, period. Status quo will always be reset, sooner or later.

In the MCU, it's a different story of course.

Edited by Forenperser on Sep 7th 2021 at 11:15:11 AM

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#133215: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:13:28 PM

The difference is that most heroes fight to maintain the status quo. They want to protect people. They try to save others. Punisher, on the other hand, seeks to eliminate the bad actors. Which will never happen. He is waging a war on crime, which he fundamentally can't win. Other heroes want to defeat the villain du jour because they're the threat at the moment.

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133216: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:14:33 PM

All Punisher does is leave power vacuums everywhere he goes.

At least most heroes stick around and try to support a community.

He’s just some dumbfuck with guns, that’s all he is.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 7th 2021 at 2:15:06 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#133217: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:14:35 PM

Hmm. I'd say it depends on the setting. Like, in the DC Universe, I think most non-Batfamily cities genuinely improved overall thanks to their supers.

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#133218: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:16:56 PM

There are times where Frank attempts to do something big regarding the superhero community and things descend into chaos as a result. In one recent comic, he assassinated the Mandarin at a press conference in front of Tony and sparked a manhunt involving the Avengers, SHIELD, and a bunch of villains all wanting a piece of him for it. He also murdered a bunch of Spider-Man villains in a bar during Civil War even though they were allied with the anti-Registration side like him.

There was also that time he met the cast of Fant4stic and left them to die in an explosion. Yes, that really happened, though curiously enough Michael B. Jordan was apparently spared. I wonder why?

Edited by lbssb on Sep 7th 2021 at 2:23:50 AM

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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#133219: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:20:17 PM

And the only reason it dosent acomplish anything is because this idea crminal will just respawn at matter of minutes wihtout anny issue at all.

"when that happens the cognitive dissonance rises up."

I mean, the movie itselft did it, the city was barely brought up again and wanda is talk down to join by hawkeye, her losing pietro feel more karmic for joing ultron than the battle in south africa, what it strike me weird is two things: one that it make bruce mad(he grab her and tell him "come up, read my mind to see if Im angry" or something like that) which is uncarateristicly OOC from him and second is how the narrative of the same movie just brush thing over.

I mean, even ross, the guy who would love to dick on the avengers let that slide, specially since is hulk(someone he hate), atacking tony(another guy he hates) in the middle of a city with probably casualty because Wanda(who join the avenger after being part of a terrortist, nazi splinter cell) join Ultron, a rouge AI form by Tony after tampering with unknown alien tech that was formely use by loki.

Like, the whole thing is the perfect argument for ross to use and rub on the avenger as far as it can, it striking how they let that out.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#133220: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:21:14 PM

I'm a bit late, but I agree with this:

God, the lengths people will go to absolve Wanda of Johannesburg or any of her other numerous crimes against humanity. Hell, I love Wanda as a character and find her a compelling character, but come on. Let her evil deeds be evil deeds, let her mistakes be mistakes.

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133221: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:21:40 PM

Power vacuum as I said. He doesn’t do anything to actually solve the criminal element.

All he does is kill some guys and move on, leaving for new criminals to take the empty seats leading to constant cycle.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#133222: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:23:18 PM

I guess the reason I like the Punisher is just pure catharsis. I know it's wrong to just brutally kill real life criminals, no matter how heinous their crimes.

So I'm content watching fictional scumbags getting their just desserts instead.

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Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#133223: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:26:22 PM

The idea that the status quo is immutable in comics is moreso a perception than a reality. It's a common joke of "nothing ever changes" but things do in fact change. It just takes a lot longer for these changes to stick, and there often is a lot of back-and-forth before it truly does.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#133224: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:28:06 PM

Then the new guard that liked a status quo from years ago takes over and does a big event to revert stuff they liked better.

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#133225: Sep 7th 2021 at 2:29:40 PM

[up]*Cough* *cough* *cough*.

Also *cough*.

Sorry, allergies.

Edited by lbssb on Sep 7th 2021 at 2:31:57 AM

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