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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#133151: Sep 7th 2021 at 8:19:23 AM

I can't wait to look at a Celestial's dump truck in Eternals.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#133152: Sep 7th 2021 at 8:21:40 AM

bunch of people here need to get their minds out of the gutter,honestly

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133153: Sep 7th 2021 at 8:27:13 AM

Hey, if we're going to discuss characters for their physical attributes, we might as well objectify the male ones for a change. Anyway, Steve Rogers' ass is America's Ass. That will always be one of the funniest scenes in the entire MCU for me.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LinkMarioSamus Since: Aug, 2021
#133154: Sep 7th 2021 at 8:38:06 AM

Sorry guys, I genuinely thought I was asking two different sets of questions, not aware of how they'd look put together. OOPS. Dunno what it says about me that THAT came to mind due to the topic of Scarlett complaining about Black Widow being hyper-sexualized in Iron Man 2.

I still don't think the two topics are especially similar, but I apologize for the way I came across.

Edited by LinkMarioSamus on Sep 7th 2021 at 8:45:34 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#133155: Sep 7th 2021 at 8:52:00 AM

Also check out Simu liu's reactions to the haters who thought his film would flop.

Hilarious

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
LinkMarioSamus Since: Aug, 2021
#133156: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:21:05 AM

I was complaining mostly about people who took Scarlett's words the wrong way, not about Black Widow being supposedly hyper-sexualized in Iron Man 2. I've never seen the film and have no plans of doing so anytime soon.

On the topic of Iron Man, how are 2 & 3 guys? The original is my favorite MCU movie, but 2 at least seems unnecessary and 3 is...yeah. I saw 3 with my family a LONG time ago.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#133157: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:32:42 AM

yes and we wish you'd stop complaining

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133158: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:37:26 AM

Weird hypothetical question: if Sam, Wanda, Clint and Scott sued the US government for violating their civil rights (and their fifth, sixth and eighth Alamendment rights) by throwing them in the Raft without trial and also violating countless Geneva Convention rules on prisoner treatment and, would they prevail?

Okey Dokey!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133160: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:42:27 AM

[up][up] The issue could go before the Supreme Court given its national security implications as well as its high visibility. At that point, who knows? We know very little about the political leanings of the US government and court system in the MCU, and I'm happy enough to keep it that way.

On a pure Constitutional question, the Accords would be absolutely bollocks, as Legal Eagle once showed us, but this as always depends on interpretation.

Among other problems, for the Accords to become law in the United States they would have to be ratified by the US Senate, and there is no indication of that happening in the movie.

This version of our government seems to have given an awful lot of diplomatic power to the Secretary of Defense, which is absolutely not how things work in real life. For example, the Secretary of State (or their delegate) would attend all United Nations events and would be the one negotiating any and all treaties. The Defense Department would be firewalled out of these deals exactly to prevent someone like Ross from going off on a crusade.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 7th 2021 at 12:46:58 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#133161: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:45:40 AM

[up][up]Unlikely. Its not on US jurisdiction. (It's in the middle of the pacfific)

Same reason Say Guantanamo Bay is able to operate.

Edit: [up]Better explanation. I

Edited by miraculous on Sep 7th 2021 at 9:46:26 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#133162: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:52:38 AM

Also check out Simu liu's reactions to the haters who thought his film would flop.

I will say, the increasing tone of "this Asian led movie is for sure going to fail to catch anybody's interest" got pretty frustrating, and it stunk of the kind of tone you only tend to get with minority led movies.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 7th 2021 at 9:53:11 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133163: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:52:50 AM

The Guantanamo Bay inmates were systematically denied habeas corpus, so that in and of itself is a very realistic and believable thing to occur in this sort of situation, wherein a group of extraordinarily dangerous individuals are designated prisoners of war and kept in military custody. The serious Constitutional violations of Gitmo were well-publicized but flat-out ignored by those in power.

In a realistic scenario (in as much as we can manage it) I would expect that the treatment of superhumans, whom the normal legal process and incarceration systems are woefully inadequate to deal with, would be given to the military as a matter of national security. It's not like a prison is going to hold Hulk or Thor. For the normals (Tony, Scott, Natasha, Clint, etc.), simple incarceration would work fine once their gadgets are gone.

Like I said, I wouldn't put it past the government to declare a national emergency and suspend habeas corpus, among other things, for godlike beings who can destroy entire cities.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133164: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:52:50 AM

I have always said that the Accords read like something straight out of Nazi Germany.

Actually, someone did a Tumblr meta of all the ways the Raft clearly suspended Geneva Convention and Mandela rules on prisoner treatment, especially with regards to Wanda alone.

Wanda would probably get rewarded a nine or ten figure sum in punitive damages. All the guards in the Raft would face criminal charges that they couldn't Nuremberg their way out of, with Ross probably being brought before the International Criminal Court.

Okey Dokey!
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#133165: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:55:14 AM

"Among other problems, for the Accords to become law in the United States they would have to be ratified by the US Senate, and there is no indication of that happening in the movie."

There's also no indication it didn't happen. Everyone, including those opposed to the Accords, treat it like it is a ratified law.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133166: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:56:01 AM

[up][up]Here's the problem, though, and the one place I agree on: Wanda, Vision, et. al. are literally superhuman. They don't need guns or gadgets to kill people. Wanda could probably have torn the Raft apart with her mind alone had she been given a reason to.

You can't deal with people like that in a court of law because the state literally cannot exercise meaningful power over them. We don't have laws designed for physical gods.

[up] There's a whole lot of "yadda yadda" about the legal process of ratifying the Accords in the film. Sure, it's not necessary to the narrative, but if we are going to perform a meaningful legal analysis, the details matter.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 7th 2021 at 12:56:56 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#133167: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:58:17 AM

Here's the problem, though, and the one place I agree on: Wanda, Vision, et. al. are literally superhuman. They don't need guns or gadgets to kill people. Wanda could probably have torn the Raft apart with her mind alone had she been given a reason to.

You then, notably, start getting into "these groups of people are not due the same rights as others, because they are different" territory, which is a very nasty slippery slope.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 7th 2021 at 10:00:05 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133168: Sep 7th 2021 at 9:59:41 AM

Sure, it's a slippery slope, but what if Wanda decides to atomize children on Fifth Avenue? What are the cops going to do?

Our legal system simply isn't built to cope with this kind of person. The State's monopoly on force only works when it actually has said monopoly. Superbeings mess with the formula.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 7th 2021 at 1:00:57 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#133169: Sep 7th 2021 at 10:00:34 AM

What if I, a uniquely charismatic black person, wanted to radicalize all other black people in my region simply by the benefit of that charisma and us being of the same race? If I was charistmatic enough and thus had the potential to do so, should I be jailed or otherwise punished excessively due to that potential, which the government has less ability to control?

It's the kind of logic that led to Fred Hampton getting assassinated by the state.

Also, we know the government has the ability to control Wanda's powers, because they did so to imprison her in the first place. The waiving of due process was independent of that.

Anywho, addendum:

The only thing that sort of saves it in the MCU is that Wanda isn't born different like she is in the comics (or, at least, they did't know she was at the time) and there is a decent chance the Accords included a "if you willingly take action which resulted in obtaining superhuman ability, you relinquish these rights" clause. Which is still bluntly nasty, but believable to what we see in the film.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 7th 2021 at 10:06:58 AM

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#133170: Sep 7th 2021 at 10:02:11 AM

[up][up][up][up]But you can't do a meaningful legal analysis, specifically because a lot is just glossed over.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133171: Sep 7th 2021 at 10:06:43 AM

Wanda could probably have torn the Raft apart with her mind alone had she been given a reason to.

I was just reading a fic where Wanda created the Hex while in the Raft.

You can't deal with people like that in a court of law because the state literally cannot exercise meaningful power over them. We don't have laws designed for physical gods.

This is why I shake my head at people who think Wanda should've been locked up for Westview. Exile really is the most logical solution. You could even say the only reason Wanda was in the Raft for CACW is because she willingly surrendered, thinking she and the others on Team Cap would be processed like normal people. If Wanda knew about what they would be subjected to in the Raft, she would've told Sam, Clint and Scott to overpower the airport cops or whoever took them into custody, then they'd steal another plane to follow Steve and Bucky to Siberia.

Okey Dokey!
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#133172: Sep 7th 2021 at 10:22:01 AM

Back in the days when CW came out I actually sat down and tried to figure out HOW to get the Accords to work IRL under the assumption it would be something the UN would try to accomplish.

Short verison- Ross (As Sec of State) wouldn't have a say at all at best, and it would take MUCH LONGER than the MCU had been in existence at that point to get something of the scope of the Accords, given that one of the hurdles is to get the Security Council to approve it...and that ALONE could take a DECADE.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133173: Sep 7th 2021 at 11:06:39 AM

What if I, a uniquely charismatic black person, wanted to radicalize all other black people in my region simply by the benefit of that charisma and us being of the same race? If I was charistmatic enough and thus had the potential to do so, should I be jailed or otherwise punished excessively due to that potential, which the government has less ability to control?

I'm sorry, can you be restrained by handcuffs and killed by bullets? Then this is not what I'm talking about. If you can throw buildings or melt people into goo with your mind, then the state is absolutely justified in using extraordinary measures to prevent you from doing those things. Your race, sex, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion, national origin, disability, and species are irrelevant.

There is no need for a real-world ethical analysis here, although I suppose insane charisma does present a threat that can't be stopped via incarceration. Historically, such people usually end up dead, either at the hands of the state or of private actors, and they are often accompanied by many ethical and moral challenges that our civilization hasn't really figured out how to solve. Just ask Jesus.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 7th 2021 at 2:12:01 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#133174: Sep 7th 2021 at 11:09:44 AM

I'm reminded of how DC has a problem with "What if Superman but EVIL storylines.

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133175: Sep 7th 2021 at 11:15:40 AM

Comic book universes are awfully lucky that most people with godlike powers aren't genocidal or otherwise insane, or at least that there are ethically-minded people who also have superpowers and are willing to put their lives and mental stability on the line to stop said villains.

For all their abilities, these are people, and people aren't perfect. Iron Man 3 gives us a disturbingly realistic portrayal of Tony Stark's PTSD after all the shit he's been through. In contrast, being bitten by a radioactive spider must have given Peter Parker a boost to his psychological stability as well as his physical strength, because for all the shit he goes through I'm honestly surprised he hasn't snapped and thrown a car at J. Jonah Jameson by now.

I'm also thinking about all the Super Serum experiments that were done on someone other than a paragon of humanity like Steve Rogers: people who went understandably mad from the equivalent of being injected with all the steroids in the universe.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 7th 2021 at 2:19:17 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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