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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133051: Sep 3rd 2021 at 8:36:21 PM

Ha, guess you shouldn’t change the powers after all. [lol]

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#133052: Sep 3rd 2021 at 8:41:42 PM

Considering ATLA showed an entire generation how cool tieing elemental "magic" with specific martial arts styles is, and the big thing of this movie was taking a character known for his elemental powers and adapting him into a martial arts story, not taking advantage of that potential seems like a ridiculous missed opportunity.

Kaze ni Nare!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133053: Sep 3rd 2021 at 8:45:02 PM

Hey, the dragon form is straight-up airbending. I didn't miss that.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#133054: Sep 3rd 2021 at 8:46:04 PM

Getting maybe into a bit of spoilery territory, but yeah, the parts at the hidden village definitely start getting into "Disney tries to make a better Avatar movie that Shamaylan" territory.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#133055: Sep 3rd 2021 at 8:49:15 PM

I will say: I don't think they did a particularly good job making Wenwu feel like an old soul. Like, he's supposed to be thousands of years old.I'd actually almost forgotten he was immortal until he dropped that "Don't talk to me like that, young man." line near the finale.

Kaze ni Nare!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#133056: Sep 3rd 2021 at 8:53:52 PM

[up] My favorite line in the entire movie, that one.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133057: Sep 3rd 2021 at 8:55:30 PM

Books could be written about Xu Wenwu's character arc in this film. I'm going to bed soon so I won't participate in writing them, but he does manage to be fairly complex for a Marvel villain. He's not just a "me smash world" type like Malekith.

Of course the plot cheats on its moral lesson by having the big CG monster kill him, saving Shang-Chi from having to make that choice.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 3rd 2021 at 11:56:31 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#133058: Sep 3rd 2021 at 9:08:00 PM

Guys, we have a Shang Chi thread.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#133059: Sep 3rd 2021 at 10:46:14 PM

Haven't seen the movie, but I just saw a trailer where someone says that the Ten Rings are more powerful than anything in this world, followed by a montage of Mjolnir, Iron Man, and Hulk. That... implies some pretty heavy things.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#133060: Sep 3rd 2021 at 10:56:26 PM

Sounds like the usual "My superhero/villain is the strongest yet, neener neener" posturing. I'm sure they're powerful but I wouldn't pay much attention to implied power levels everybody seems to like doing.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133061: Sep 3rd 2021 at 10:58:52 PM

Amusingly considering his rings have been degraded into energy blast things they should be weaker compared to say 10 various superpowers.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 3rd 2021 at 10:59:42 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#133062: Sep 3rd 2021 at 11:41:17 PM

@Fighteer Well, Shang-Chi already made his decision just before the monster kills his father. He had all the Ten Rings and had the chance to kill him right there and now. He choose not to kill his father. What the monster does provide is for the father to sacrifice his long life for the life of his son.

Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#133063: Sep 4th 2021 at 2:19:36 AM

Russo Brothers at "an Impasse" to Direct Another Marvel Movie After Scarlett Johansson Lawsuit.

Since the lawsuit, brothers Joe Russo and Anthony Russo, directors of Marvel’s “Avengers: Endgame,” the highest-grossing movie of all time, hit an impasse in negotiations to direct another Marvel movie. The Johansson dispute left them unsure how their next movie would be distributed and how they would be paid, according to people familiar with the matter. The Russos declined to comment.

From the same article: Scarlet Johansson wanted $100 mln for Black Widow

After the simultaneous release was announced, Ms. Johansson’s team made an opening bid: Pay the actress $80 million. The calculation was based on what the star would receive in a hypothetical global box-office take of $1.2 billion, a sum in league with Marvel hits “Captain Marvel” and “Black Panther.” (Hobbled by the pandemic and at-home release, the movie has so far been one of Marvel’s worst performers, with $371 million grossed world-wide.)

The deal, as pitched, would pay Ms. Johansson a total of $100 million for the movie, including her $20 million salary. It was an eye-popping sum, but her team saw it as a starting point. Disney never responded with a counteroffer.

Source: WSJ

Edited by Asherinka on Sep 4th 2021 at 12:36:51 PM

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#133064: Sep 4th 2021 at 2:31:48 AM

Well shit.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LinkMarioSamus Since: Aug, 2021
#133065: Sep 4th 2021 at 3:35:21 AM

I want to ask a stupid question to this thread: Black Widow or Captain Marvel? Regarding films, not characters.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#133066: Sep 4th 2021 at 3:41:25 AM

> Disney never responded with a counteroffer.

I'm just picturing someone at Disney saying

"$100 Million dollars!"

=spits out coffee-

"We can't afford to spend millions on an actress when we can pay her peanuts!"

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#133067: Sep 4th 2021 at 3:54:11 AM

You'd think these bastards would've learned from the Perlmutter situation.

Mixed thoughts on the Russos returning after the various choices they made on Infinity War and Endgame. No doubt they were better than bringing Whedon back, and I don't doubt that their hands may have been partially tied by Executive Meddling, but they made a fair number of questionable and distasteful decisions that were strictly their own.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 4th 2021 at 6:57:38 AM

Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#133068: Sep 4th 2021 at 4:00:53 AM

TBH when you realize that the entire budget of Wanda Vision is around 200 mln, and Olsen likely got no more than 10 mln for the entirety of it without any additional payments, and (in my humble opinion) she did a much better job there, you kinda lose a smidge of sympathy for SJ's cause. Or maybe that's just me.

I doubt even RDJ ever got 100 mln from a single movie.

Edit: To put this in perspective, check this article:

  • RDJ got $75 mln for "Endgame"
  • Chris Evans got $15 mln apiece for "Civil War," "Infinity War," and "Endgame"
  • Chris Hemsworth got $15 mln apiece for "Thor: Ragnarok," "Infinity War" and "Endgame"
  • Brie Larsen got $5 mln for "Captain Marvel"
  • Chadwick Boseman got $2 mln for "Black Panther"

None of them but RDJ and SJ had a "special deal" that allowed them to get the % of the overall profits in addition to the fixed part.

Wall Street Journal claims that she got the $20 mln fixed part and 80/1200~6,6% of the box-office. Since the actual box office is indeed 371mln, she got around $45 mln already + proceeds from D+ (Disney stated that they paid her a % of Premier Access fees as well).

That's all insane.


[down] How is sending Steve to Peggy questionable? You mean the time-travelling mess it resulted in? I believe it was in the original script.

Edited by Asherinka on Sep 4th 2021 at 3:33:55 PM

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133069: Sep 4th 2021 at 5:02:22 AM

but they made a fair number of questionable and distasteful decisions that were strictly their own.

If I remember correctly, this includes things like killing off Natasha, sending Steve back to Peggy, etc.?

-

[up]A lot of the controversy stems, I think, from those who think it was a disservice to Peggy, feeling it reduced her to a prize for Steve.

Edited by dmcreif on Sep 4th 2021 at 8:38:27 AM

Okey Dokey!
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#133070: Sep 4th 2021 at 5:36:43 AM

I dunno which is more hilarious: ScarJo expecting to make $100m (as noted $25m more than what leading man RDJ made in Endgame) or the "calculus" that BW would've broken $1b.

And I liked BW but there's no universe where it makes over a billion. You need Shang-Chi's reception and overall hype to do that well and BW was never going to get close to that.

I still overall back ScarJo's fight in principle but it's kinda easy to see why Disney would just walk from those numbers. Easy narrative is that they were waiting for ScarJo to come back with more "reasonable" starting numbers.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#133071: Sep 4th 2021 at 6:23:20 AM

Yeah, $100 million is absurd, especially for a film releasing pre-post-pandemic as this one did. Admittedly that's not Johannsen's fault, but one must be realistic about these things (ironically).

If I had to personally rank Captain Marvel against Black Widow? I try not to do that because it feels puerile. They are very different films trying to do very different things. Also, are we comparing them just because they have female leads? Isn't that kind of regressive?

But fine: I would put Captain Marvel ahead. Aside from the spectacle at the ending, Black Widow is more of a spy flick than a superhero film, which is Marvel's bread and butter. Its attempt to inexpertly mix the two genres is where it falls apart the most. Captain Marvel is a superhero film from start to finish and never loses sight of what it's trying to accomplish.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 4th 2021 at 9:25:05 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#133072: Sep 4th 2021 at 6:52:36 AM

Remember folks, Scar Jo isn't JUST the lead actress she's also one of the Executive Producers on Black Widow, THOSE people are the ones who get the largest paychecks/returns from a film.

Its why Patty and Gal got 20 Million paychecks but nobody else on WW 84 got those cuts...because they were both Producers on the film.

RDJ wasn't noted as a producer on IW or Endgame IIRC so he wouldn't have gotten as huge of a check, and the offer was a starting point, they most likely were looking for a lower number knowing Disney would counter offer that would (in theory) be closer to the number Scar Jo actually wanted. Common haggling trick.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#133073: Sep 4th 2021 at 6:56:54 AM

TBH when you realize that the entire budget of Wanda Vision is around 200 mln, and Olsen likely got no more than 10 mln for the entirety of it without any additional payments, and (in my humble opinion) she did a much better job there, you kinda lose a smidge of sympathy for SJ's cause. Or maybe that's just me.

Such a big budget for WV probably has a bit to do with the attention to detail when it came to recreating the atmosphere of the sitcoms they were homaging.

Okey Dokey!
LinkMarioSamus Since: Aug, 2021
#133074: Sep 4th 2021 at 9:01:02 AM

I wasn't asking about Captain Marvel vs. Black Widow on the grounds of them both having female leads. It just seemed to me like the reception to both films was similar.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#133075: Sep 4th 2021 at 9:43:35 AM

Just seems disingenuous, then, that out of the 25 or so projects we've had you pick the two unambiguously led by women.

I don't think the reception was even that similar the besides RT scores (unless you count sexist trolls which, then, yes, it just circles right back around to their womanhood). CM and BW set out to do different things and the respective reception were in response to those goals: Black Widow is a serviceable but too-late midquel adventure, so it did not have to do as much characterization-wise; Captain Marvel is a good but formulaic origin story for a new character, making it more comparable to something like Doctor Strange.

Edited by Synchronicity on Sep 4th 2021 at 11:44:03 AM


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