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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#132251: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:09:58 PM

But he was already doing despicable things. He's just using the race angle as an excuse to trample on other people.

He was genuinely angry due to what happened in his life and was lashing out as a result. The issue is that a lot of people REALLY RELATE to that because this is a reflection of everyday life for black people in the United States, so making him a villain is...well, not entirely agreeable depending on who you talk to.

But he doesn't want reform. He wants to be the emperor of this new system which practically follows who ever is on the top.

I never said he wanted reform. I'm saying the opposite. Killmonger, thematically, represents black radicalism a la Malcolm X, Robert F. Williams, and the Black Panther Party.

Edited by Diana1969 on Aug 23rd 2021 at 12:11:26 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132252: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:11:32 PM

[up][up] I think its more of a suicidal temper tantrum since his ultimate goal was to basically start a war with everyone and basically get everyone killed.

At the end he just wanted to cause mass suffering.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#132253: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:15:05 PM

[up][up]I understand being able to relate but at the same time it really ignores a lot of the character's really terrible actions. But then again it's just me doing hindsight after a rewatch.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#132254: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:20:03 PM

I understand being able to relate but at the same time it really ignores a lot of the character's really terrible actions. But then again it's just me doing hindsight after a rewatch.

I think it's because we're coming at it from two different perspectives here.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#132255: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:21:00 PM

[up][up][up]This.

I feel like a lot of people really overlook the fact that Killmonger isn't really doing this to uplift an oppressed people. The world hurt him, and he's gonna hurt it back even if it gets everybody— black people included —killed. He knows this and in the climax admits as much.

His plan doesn't end with Wakanda on a throne ruling the planet, it ends with the planet burnt to cinders.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Aug 22nd 2021 at 10:25:25 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132256: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:23:07 PM

Its important to note that this is a thing with villains.

They always have a valid point, they just come to the wrong conclusions about it or use is it to justify commixing evil.

The the lesson the hero has to learn is to take in these points and find the answer that the villain did not.

The villain represents what happens if the problem is not fixed so the hero must now make sure nobody like the villain ever happens again.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:23:45 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#132257: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:27:05 PM

[up]Yeah pretty much, just find the whole cleaning of him rather a tad... extreme Draco in Leather Pants scenario. Like on how people claimed he changed T'Challa's view when he didn't, he saw him instead as a result.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132258: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:32:47 PM

Well of course he got mass draco'd.

He's pretty, he's tough, he's charismatic, he has the appearance of a valid point, he's got it all.

He's...... huh did they composite Killmonger with Hunter/White Wolf, T'Challa's evil adopted brother?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#132259: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:35:08 PM

I feel like a lot of people really overlook the fact that Killmonger isn't really doing this to uplift an oppressed people. The world hurt him, and he's gonna hurt it back even if it gets everybody— black people included —killed. He knows this and in the climax admits as much.

His plan doesn't end with Wakanda on a throne ruling the planet, it ends with the planet burnt to cinders.

If we're looking in-universe, yes, Killmonger's plan isn't going to uplift anyone.

But let's look at it subtextually for a moment. Killmonger's character is meant to be styled after black radicals. Michael B. Jordan compared him to a cross between Malcolm X and Tupac Shakur. He is a character plenty of people relate to in that his rage at the suffering black Americans face is felt across the whole community and people are still mad as hell about it. Yet Killmonger is simultaneously shown to be a violent person who just wants to watch the world burn.

This is something that is commonly done, is to portray those of a more radical persuasion as just wanting to watch everything burn. That they do these things because there are genuine issues in society, but their way is too violent and chaotic to fix things. The end of Black Panther shows T'Challa opting for a path of reformism and charity to address the problem. Now, this is fine and dandy for a movie, but when you look at real life? Of course people are going to empathize with Killmonger. Reformism isn't going to stop black people from being killed by the police.

Subtextually, Killmonger is supposed to represent a particular ideology in the same way T'Challa and Nakia are. There are pretty clear political themes going on that, ultimately, do not come down in support of Killmonger's side. Yet when you take those political themes and put them into the broader context of American politics, Killmonger becoming beloved by left-leaning black Americans is inevitable. They obviously don't want to do exactly what Killmonger tried doing in the movie, but it's the ideology, what the character represents, that speaks to them.

Edited by Diana1969 on Aug 23rd 2021 at 12:38:13 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#132260: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:39:47 PM

Oh yeah, I can understand that. I find Killmonger very compelling a character myself. God knows there's times I wish I could just destroy this planet and everyone on it. tongue

It just seems odd to say he should have won or that he'd have created a better world if he did win, unless your idea of a better world is, well, a destroyed world.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Aug 22nd 2021 at 10:40:27 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#132261: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:53:13 PM

While the archetype of the "well-intentioned-but-ultimately-monstrously-misguided-revolutionary" is overused and we don't really need much more of it (as noted by Tucker) I do think Killmonger is as good as execution of it as it can get. You can evven compare and contrast with Karli Morgenthau (it being done as badly as it can be done).

Aside from the obvious of Karli having this lightning speed descent into villainy that is pretty incoherent, there's other more obvious problems. One is that One is that BP has a clever little point about intersectionality in that Killmonger tramples under Wakandan culture in a way explicitly noted (by both him and Ross) to functionally be the same way US imperialism tramples native cultures underfoot. He is both african-american and african-american, as I sometimes quip. And this kind of cascades into the film's whole message in a interesting way. For example Killmonger's threat in the story is much more about the damage is causing to Wakanda itself and than his actual planned oppressor revanchism. The fact both the heroes and Killmonger have a sort of shared bond about oppression in different ways helps the conflict feel more real. While we don't get to fully see what T'challa does in response to Killmonger's deeds, it's clear he's going to be using his resources pretty heavily for a "non-violent revolution" in african-descended community all over the world and he's ready to face some battles for it (as with the UN scene of him being asked condescendingly asked "who he is" shows there will be some resistance). It's a solid starting point.

Karli on the other hand gets paired up with two other characters: a war criminal (by his own admission) footsoldier of US Imperialism (John Walker) and the GRC who are for all intents and purposes architects of genocide and it asks us to consider that Karli is the biggest immediate monster between them, which is absurd. It'd be like if Black Panther had T'challa teaming up with Klaue to stop the bigger threat of Killmonger or pretended Killmonger and Klaue were equally repprehensible and dangerous. The main characters of the show also don't seem to ever really catch what Karli is laying down: The conclusion of the story is gently scolding the establishment and hoping that fixes everything while for all intents and purposes acting as their attack hound otherwise.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#132262: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:54:55 PM

Killmonger won in the sense that T'Challa learned from him, and decided that while the methods were wrong, the grievances Killmonger has are legit and thus put Wakanda on the path of being more actively involved with world and humanitarian affairs.

Killmonger would only really lose if T'Challa and Wakanda completely ignore his points and pretend that nothing happened beyond a political coup. That is the worst thing that could happen to Killmonger, dying and being forgotten. Making no impact upon the world in spite of everything he went through and did.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132263: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:00:17 PM

On an unrelated note, I'm now amused that for all the Avengers game attempts to rip off the movies it didn't bring in Killmonger for its Black Panther campaign.

Instead making Klaue backed by Crossbones as the primary threats.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#132264: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:05:56 PM

[up][up]But the thing about it is that there are already characters who talk about helping outside Wakanda. Like I said, Nakia exists to point that out. Killmonger in the end didn't really "win" or "persuaded" T'Challa, he exists to show T'Challa that there are people who would end up like him.

He's...... huh did they composite Killmonger with Hunter/White Wolf, T'Challa's evil adopted brother?
Huh no? White Wolf in MCU is Bucky.

Edited by Ookamikun on Aug 22nd 2021 at 11:06:26 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#132265: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:07:24 PM

In name (and skintone) only.

They meant compositing White Wolf's character with Killmonger.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#132266: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:09:27 PM

White Wolf was a Wakandan ultra-patriot though, which might make him closer to the movie's take on W'Kabi.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132267: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:10:23 PM

Thats what I meant yes.

Okay I just checked, Killmonger doesn't have a familial relation to T'Challa in the source material so yeah they prolly composited some elements of Hunter with him.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:10:39 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#132268: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:11:51 PM

So the Spider-Man: No Way Home trailer leak has already revealed details that have been made public: Doctor Strange and Spider-Man team up to stop a multiversal threat and Alfred Molina's Doctor Octopus appears. I've seen it myself and it looks 100% genuine with some unfinished CGI and special effects since it hasn't been finished yet.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#132269: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:14:09 PM

[up]Put all that under spoiler tags.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#132270: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:17:24 PM

Its important to note that this is a thing with villains.

They always have a valid point, they just come to the wrong conclusions about it or use is it to justify commixing evil.

The the lesson the hero has to learn is to take in these points and find the answer that the villain did not.

The villain represents what happens if the problem is not fixed so the hero must now make sure nobody like the villain ever happens again.

This is definitely not true. It's why Complete Monsters are a thing. Still I will admit a Villain Having A Point does make a compelling villain, and I feel Killmonger is an excellent example of one.

Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 22nd 2021 at 11:17:33 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132271: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:18:31 PM

Okay they generally have a point, not always.

It varies but its a common element.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:18:46 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#132272: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:21:11 PM

Okay they generally have a point, not always.

It varies but its a common element.

Ehh...I mean, one of my favorite MCU villains is Ego, and he doesn't really have a valid point to his actions. The most he has is being an extension of Quill's familial issues, which is different than Killmonger's righteous fury at Wakandan society.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#132273: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:23:04 PM

"I was tired of being alone so I went and socialized and then realized that people suck so I'm going to create a whole bunch of me's instead and also I have insomnia"

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#132274: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:23:24 PM

Thanos also ultimately doesn't really have a point either. Something he demonstrated in Endgame, where he changes his plan to "kill everyone and reboot the universe so it will worship me".

Edited by M84 on Aug 22nd 2021 at 11:23:48 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#132275: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:25:04 PM

He was booed down at a town hall meeting and never really recovered

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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