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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#132176: Aug 22nd 2021 at 11:04:58 AM

Other people have explained it better in more detail, but I just feel that AOU in general set a lot of bad precedents that continue to plague the MCU to this day. Also, AOU conversely introduced characterization beats, already recognized as OOC at the time, that Endgame stupidly believed deserved to be followed up upon instead of just ignoring them like a reasonable person who cares about consistency or continuity, because they were terrible to begin with (yes it's that goddamn Natasha thing again).

Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:41:37 PM

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#132177: Aug 22nd 2021 at 11:17:59 AM

I feel like I hate AOU more and more as time goes on, although I can't say I'm not skewed by the fact that I hate Whedon, even if some of the film isn't exactly his fault but I'm giving him very limited benefit of the doubt. It's just really annoying, gross and haphazardly made, to the point where I don't think it's thaaaaat far removed from some of the worst comic book movies out there. Hell, I'd say it and Josstice League are possibly the two biggest encapsulations of what I feel people who hate comic book movies and think they're all the same and deep into "superhero fatigue" see. Right into the bin.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
LinkMarioSamus Since: Aug, 2021
#132178: Aug 22nd 2021 at 11:30:12 AM

[up][up] Yeah it's kind of obvious Endgame was catering to some character beats from much earlier in the MCU, what with Tony Stark the one to pull the big snap and Steve getting to have his dance with Peggy. The dumb thing is that I hadn't seen Iron Man or The First Avenger until after seeing Endgame.

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#132179: Aug 22nd 2021 at 11:34:51 AM

I was surprised that Stark was first shown in Civil War giving a rousing speech then dumping a ton of money on some grad students. I figured he would be somewhat broke after Ao U. And Wanda doesn't really switch sides because she realizes HYDRA was wrong or that the Avengers were really the good guys all along. She fights against Ultron because she realizes he is going to try to destroy life on the planet.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#132180: Aug 22nd 2021 at 11:37:47 AM

I actually kind of like Ultron being quippy. Comedy is such a human trait, that seeing a ruthless killer or robot with a sense of humor has an unnerving quality to it. And Ultron is both of those.

Not saying it couldn't have been done better though, because it definitely could have.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#132181: Aug 22nd 2021 at 11:42:32 AM

I like Tony being the one to snap away Thanos

Like it or not it was Iron Man who started the MCU, a mad experiment that could have cost Marvel the rest of its film rights

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132182: Aug 22nd 2021 at 11:42:32 AM

What about Ultron's "human" face in hindsight?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#132184: Aug 22nd 2021 at 12:29:40 PM

To have anyone else end Thanos would've undercut Tony's journey.

Okey Dokey!
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#132185: Aug 22nd 2021 at 1:37:26 PM

Speaking of Scorsese, I honestly feel like the average MCU film is of comparable quality to the average Scorsese film post-Goodfellas.

Having watched The Irishman just recently...no.

The MCU are popcorn films. Some of them are GREAT popcorn films with great actors. But many of the films are full of so many issues that I can't really look past. It kind of says a lot that, for me, my favorite MCU films are the two directed by James Gunn and the one directed by Taika Waititi, who are both some of my favorite directors and who break out from the usual MCU quippery and awkward, same-y dialogue (an issue I have with a lot of the post-2012 films that feels like a poor attempt at recapturing Joss Whedon's style).

Here's how I put it: I love Godzilla movies. Do I think most Godzilla movies are comparable to anything directed by Martin Scorsese? Fuck no. But I still watch them, I still love them, and I still think a huge chunk of them are pretty crap. They're still fun to watch overall cuz I mean...it's kaiju blowing shit up and fighting each other. With the MCU, it's all about seeing some of this crazy stuff. If anything, one issue I've had with some MCU films is that they don't go crazy ENOUGH like the comics do.

The thing about Killmonger is his whole race war plot really isn't that much of a derail. He has a giant trail of bodies just to get to where he was at, and then proceeded to kill more just to get the Wakandan throne. It's not that far off for his grander plans to include killing even more people, and with how much he blames Wakanda specifically for not doing anything about race relations in America it's not that much of a leap for him to go to the race war.

It only comes off as character assassination if you're already onboard with the idea that some things need to burn and some people need to hang in order to improve the world for the black people living in it. Which is...controversial, to say the least.

Frankly, in hindsight, I just view Killmonger as being the usual obnoxious stereotype of what liberals think black radicals are like. The usual backhanded sympathy coupled with the character, in particular, being given ultraviolent tendencies to remind the audience that they're a villain, some bullshit about "race war" that only the most right-wing black nationalists believe in (the Elijah Mohammeds and Marcus Garveys of the world who have only ever been allied with white supremacists over black liberation). There is a reason why Killmonger became so popular among left-leaning African-Americans after the movie's release and why I've seen backlash towards his position as a villain (coupled with Falcon and Winter Soldier's own issues). That rage is from a genuine place, there's a whole black radical tradition, and you're not gonna get a genuinely good portrayal of it in mainstream media. The portrayal you're gonna get is the one that says the system should be reformed, not torn down, which is also going to be controversial in lieu of events from the past year alone.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132186: Aug 22nd 2021 at 1:52:20 PM

On the subject of Killmonger its interesting to note the contrast he sorta gets compared to Mandarin.

Like Mandarin still receives some pushback on the grounds of being a stereotype yet Killmonger is arguably pretty stereotypical himself but he became an icon with critically acclaimed reception from audiences.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Prowler I'm here for our date, Rose! Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
I'm here for our date, Rose!
#132187: Aug 22nd 2021 at 1:58:05 PM

[up][up] Hear, hear.

I've enjoyed every Marvel movie to some degree, but the idea that they're matching Scorsese is laughable. And I think that if anyone believes he or Coppola are coming at them as some kind of ivory tower snob, they should educate themselves as to how those guys actually feel about most genre fare. I don't necessarily agree with them in regards to the Marvel flicks, but I think they're touching on a vital issue.

Besides, it's not like Scorsese called them horseshit or anything. He called then "theme park rides," which... I think he kinda has a point.

Edited by Prowler on Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:58:16 AM

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#132188: Aug 22nd 2021 at 1:59:06 PM

Coppola, on the other hand, did outright call them "despicable".

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#132189: Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:13:53 PM

On the earlier comparison of Killmonger with Karli Morgenthau, in my opinion I think the former’s outbursts of violence feel more believable to me than the latter is because we spend scenes with him and his dad to understand more where he comes from. We get to know that they missed Wakanda, empathize with Erik as he loses his dad, and understand the pain he feels and why he wants to make everyone else feel it. Whether as with Karli it’s very evident that the scenes fleshing out her life before the Flagsmashers were cut so her revenge attacks feel inexplicable.

Overall I don’t think we need any more “get a reasonable usually left-wing ideology but its primary advocate needlessly snaps necks”, but there’s a method to making Tragic Villains and it doesn’t work if we don’t feel what they mourn losing.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#132190: Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:23:14 PM

Coppola, on the other hand, did outright call them "despicable".

That's not quite what he said. He said that his issue was more that he views the movies as not being risky and being made less for art and more for commercialism. Coppola viewed that as being a despicable practice. I personally don't think it's entirely wrong.

The same article tries implying Coppola is a hypocrite because of his work on the Godfather trilogy, but I'm not sure that's in any way equitable to the MCU. The Godfather coming out as a franchise wasn't really intended. It just kind of happened.

LinkMarioSamus Since: Aug, 2021
#132191: Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:29:04 PM

I specified post-Goodfellas, but feel free to disagree!

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#132192: Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:30:09 PM

The issue here is basically a transfer of a conversation that literature has had for a long time, moved over into films: that there is a certain criteria before media becomes "literature"/"cinema" and that things that don't fit that criteria aren't worth the same consideration as those that do, nor should be given the same categorization. This can apply to anything from styles of storytelling or characterization, to genres as a whole.

It's the kind of topic that creators like Scorsese and Coppola, extremely wealthy and influential directors who now have the clout in the industry to make whatever projects they wish without having to be beholden to studio or marketing committee whims, would naturally come down on the side they do about.

However, to those without that perspective it generally comes off as hypocritical in part because it generally comes off as elitist and arbitrary: and it didn't go over well with the general audience because it's essentially telling scores of people that the things they have chosen to enjoy are inferior.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:32:43 AM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#132193: Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:30:30 PM

I specified post-Goodfellas, but feel free to disagree!

The Irishman came out like two years ago.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#132194: Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:30:48 PM

[up][up] An interview with Veronica Falcon, who played Donya Madani, confirms that she was going to appear in what was planned to be four entire episodes of what she implies was an originally longer episode count (counter to Spellman's implication that the shortening took place at the writing stage rather than the filming stage) before her character role was essentially deleted into nothingness, and they refilmed a bunch of scenes. No guarantee that the original plan would've been better, but that's quite a significant change.

Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 22nd 2021 at 5:31:14 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132195: Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:34:32 PM

Wasn't Godfather 3 some nepotism shit or something?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#132196: Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:36:22 PM

Four episodes, wow, and they filmed them. Maybe the Ayer Cut folks can redirect a bit. tongue

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#132197: Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:48:38 PM

Wasn't Godfather 3 some nepotism shit or something?

Kind of? The film itself was made because Coppola needed to pay off some debts (running theme for a lot of his career) and he cast his daughter Sophia at the last minute because Winona Ryder bailed from the film when they were about to start shooting.

DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#132198: Aug 22nd 2021 at 3:41:14 PM

A warning for those that use social media. The trailer for No Way Home has been leaked.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132199: Aug 22nd 2021 at 3:41:38 PM

Ohohohohohohohohohobohohohohohohohohohoho!!!!!'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'

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