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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#132151: Aug 21st 2021 at 7:59:19 PM

[up][up] So is the random sheepish wave at the bystanders. evil grinevil grin

Oh, man. I love it. I love it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 21st 2021 at 7:59:24 AM

XMenMutant22 The Feline Follies of Felix the Cat Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#132152: Aug 21st 2021 at 8:09:04 PM

I'll admit, the quick cut to Cliff's bystander livestream made me chuckle a little.

"I took a little bit of martial arts as a kid, so I'mma grade this fight as we follow along."

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#132153: Aug 21st 2021 at 9:11:37 PM

That clip is awesome. I'm really looking forward to seeing the movie.

One thing I found tangentially amusing. So, it seems like the Minions sequel has some kind of 1970's martial arts related plot, and there's a pendant evidently called the "Zodiac Stone" that looks a lot like the one Shang Chi is wearing.

I'm curious. Is that kind of medallion a "thing" in the wuxia genre? I'm also thinking of those talismans in Jackie Chan Adventures.

But I do find the Minion thing kind of interesting because I have the sense that the 1970's Kung Fu genre is having a bit of a renaissance. Maybe the related Blaxpoitation genre too.

Edit - To somewhat answer my own question - I bet the talismans in all those works are inspired by Taoist coin charms.

Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 21st 2021 at 11:14:39 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#132154: Aug 21st 2021 at 9:15:07 PM

Though however they choose to adapt him may be different, Shang Chi is less a wuxia character than he is a 70's martial arts exploitation film pastiche (IE, the same genre that Jackie Chan Adventures was an Affectionate Parody of). Medallions and talismans do recur in that genre somewhat.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 21st 2021 at 9:15:51 AM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#132155: Aug 21st 2021 at 10:11:17 PM

Evidence of active Moon Knight filming in Budapest.

I think it says something about Shang Chi that people just want to talk about Spidey.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#132156: Aug 21st 2021 at 10:36:25 PM

There is actually a historical somewhat distinction between what we usually call Wuxia and Kung Fu Fiction. According to Professor Stephen Teo, Wuxia is rooted much more in the northern regions of china, rooted in the centuries-long Wuxia novels and narratively it is more often about swordfighting (with the Jian/Dao) and overtly mystical aspects. It is to Chinese history much more in the line of what we call chivalry novels, and it had a more hallowed place. Kung Fu Fiction we understand it is more of a southern-based, Cantonese tradition based on pure fistfighting and relatively more mundane plots and aspects so more Charles Atlas Superpower than people chucking fireballs at one another and they are rooted more in cheap pulp novels from the late 19th century to the mid 20th (as well as local traditions, of course).

Of course, with time the two crosspolinated a lot and thus there are a lot of films dancing on the razor's edge (particularly with the aproximation between HK and the mainland since the late 90's).

In the more classic HK kung fu films of the Shaw Brothers tradition the conflict is more often than not ideological or personal rather than cosmic (quite often just about sums of money or domination of a region). Treasures, medallions, statues and general artifacts often show up more as a pathway to drive conflict in some way or another than a tool to harness pure power. 90's kung fu films (and particularly Jackie Chan) were fond of "the conflict is driven by some artifact important to the identity and soul of China" (most famously, Drunken Master II with the brits attempting to steal the royal seal).

Shang-Chi leaned more to the "Pure kung fu" side in the comics while Iron Fist more to wuxia, but here of course Shang-Chi is zig-zagging a lot more in the comics.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132157: Aug 21st 2021 at 11:50:36 PM

Was recently reading an edition of Superman Smashes the Klan (great book BTW) I bought and during a trip the movies Roberta noticed to her ire on the poster that the villain of the film is some Fu Manchu shit stereotype (said book takes place in the 1940s).

So since Mandarin is heading the movie again its interesting how depictions have evolved since then. Like how Asian villains have a tendency to generally be portrayed with that ugly wispy mustache/goatee combo so its interesting that by contrast Mandarin here is completely clean-shaven.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 21st 2021 at 11:50:55 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#132158: Aug 22nd 2021 at 3:01:29 AM

Rewatching BP again and man the whole Killmonger simping in social media back then feels so wrong. It's like they totally forget the whole negative aspect Killmonger has.

Meanwhile people ignore the best guy M'Baku.

HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#132159: Aug 22nd 2021 at 3:51:29 AM

Killmonger is a strong example of a problem I've seen come up several times: the villain has an obvious point, which corresponds to a real-world problem. So then they throw in some despicable moments to make them suitably villainous. Except for some people the balance ends up off, so they still like the villain anyway, or feel that the villainous moments were too forced. Same thing with Karli / Flag-Smasher.

Also, he's hot.

Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#132160: Aug 22nd 2021 at 4:30:40 AM

It is almost as if Killmonger is treated as a Draco in Leather Pants smile

He actually is listed as an example, together with Loki, Thanos and ... ?Ivan Vanko? from Iron Man 2. Does the last one really count?

"Ivan Vanko in Iron Man 2 has a sympathetic background, but a surprising amount of people considered him justified in going after Tony after learning said background, with some suggesting that Tony was the real villain. This is despite Tony having nothing to do with what happened to Vanko's father. On top of that, Vanko kills at least half a dozen people over the course of the movie, including at least one prison guard and several civilians at the Monaco Grand Prix, as well as unleashing a small army of heavily-armed Hammer drones on the densely-crowded Stark Expo and then subsequently blew them all up in massive detonations when he lost as a final act of spite."

Are there more examples in the MCU missing from the list?

Edited by Asherinka on Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:34:09 PM

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#132161: Aug 22nd 2021 at 5:04:21 AM

You can pretty much add any popular MCU villain on that list.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#132162: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:22:39 AM

The thing about Killmonger is his whole race war plot really isn't that much of a derail. He has a giant trail of bodies just to get to where he was at, and then proceeded to kill more just to get the Wakandan throne. It's not that far off for his grander plans to include killing even more people, and with how much he blames Wakanda specifically for not doing anything about race relations in America it's not that much of a leap for him to go to the race war.

It only comes off as character assassination if you're already onboard with the idea that some things need to burn and some people need to hang in order to improve the world for the black people living in it. Which is...controversial, to say the least.

Now Karli, though, that's a clear case of derailing. Because the Flag Smashers are explicitly labeled as sticking to non-lethal means of violence before she suddenly went "fuck it we're going lethal now". And it's Hand Waved as her being radicalized by the effects of the Super Soldier Serum, and the other Flag Smashers raise issues but otherwise just go with the ride. That is bullshit.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#132163: Aug 22nd 2021 at 7:57:49 AM

Rumors are swirling that the No Way Home trailer is definitely airing at Cinema Con, and may be close to 3(!) minutes.

Grain of salt, but the two most obvious places to debut it would be Cinema Con and Week 1 of MNF. Also you could probably score some bonus Shang-Chi tickets out of people if you promised that the NWH trailer is in front of it.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#132164: Aug 22nd 2021 at 8:04:05 AM

[up] Now you're making me imagine a What If? scenario where Shang-Chi becomes Spider-Man. Maybe that could happen in Season 2, haha

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#132165: Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:08:05 AM

[up][up]How trustworthy are these rumours ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
LinkMarioSamus Since: Aug, 2021
#132166: Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:14:05 AM

Just to ask, why is Age of Ultron typically considered the weakest Avengers film? Is it because it puts too much priority on setting up future films and/or just generally being overstuffed?

Sorry for my posts earlier. I'm very grateful for the MCU and loathe how some legacy filmmakers like Scorsese and Coppola view it with disdain (also feels hypocritical considering they got their start working for Roger "King of B-Movies" Corman), but it's clear that a lot of the lens I view it through is not great. Speaking of Scorsese, I honestly feel like the average MCU film is of comparable quality to the average Scorsese film post-Goodfellas.

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#132167: Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:22:13 AM

Personally, I didn't mind the future set up — it was certainly tedious, but done better than, say, TASM2. The main flaw I think most would agree on is that the film was Whedon at his Whedon-est.

  • Unnecessary quips in every other scene, which jarred with the tone and made Ultron feel very OOC.
  • The unnecessary death of Quicksilver for dramatic effect.
  • Misogyny under the guise of "feminism" (Black Widow's whole "I'm a monster" thing).

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#132168: Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:27:19 AM

Ultron does wind up underwhelming due to Whedon’s philosophy that the Avenger’s greatest enemies are each other and that if they team up they are pretty much invincible.

So the bot comes across as a weakling despite being an Avengers level threat.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:27:27 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#132169: Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:28:15 AM

Ah Quicksilver. One of the few MCU hero deaths to stick.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#132170: Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:29:18 AM

[up][up] At least they're giving him another chance to shine in What If.

LinkMarioSamus Since: Aug, 2021
#132171: Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:31:21 AM

Oh yeah I forgot about all that.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#132172: Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:36:02 AM

Age of Ultron’s main problem in my opinion is that it tries to give every Avenger an arc questioning their purpose then resolves almost none of them. On top of the excessive quipping and misogyny. It’s overall a very choppy film.

On Scorcese, I don’t see much reason for MCU fans to obsess over his opinion. It’s just a repeat of when Roger Ebert said video games aren’t art. What did he affect by saying it? Basically nothing. Billion dollar industry kept on chugging past him. It’s the same here with Marvel movies.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Aug 22nd 2021 at 10:30:56 AM

DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#132173: Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:44:36 AM

[up][up]

No offense but you seem to have a habit of bring up topics that have little to do within a specific thread.

Edited by DoubleOG on Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:45:02 AM

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#132174: Aug 22nd 2021 at 9:54:57 AM

This take's probably a little unfair given that it's more of a "in hindsight" problem, but it also really feels like Age of Ultron got the ball rolling on the habit of glossing over some of the heroes' less savory actions.

Namely Tony and Wanda. Like, there's perfectly good explanations for why neither of them are in jail/under probation or whatever at the end of the movie, but it really hurts both their characters that none of those explanations are in the movie, and I feel like it kind of kicked off a habit of characters (but especially those two) never facing any real accountability because... I don't know. I guess nobody really wants to put it in their movie and always assumed the next person has it covered?

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#132175: Aug 22nd 2021 at 11:03:49 AM

Namely Tony and Wanda. Like, there's perfectly good explanations for why neither of them are in jail/under probation or whatever at the end of the movie, but it really hurts both their characters that none of those explanations are in the movie, and I feel like it kind of kicked off a habit of characters (but especially those two) never facing any real accountability because... I don't know. I guess nobody really wants to put it in their movie and always assumed the next person has it covered?

Civil War should've had some explanation for why Tony wasn't in jail. I've seen at least one person suggest bribery was involved. Though I honestly disagreed with that person's assessment.

As for Wanda, I think that her involvement with Ultron was probably kept under wraps so that Ross wouldn't try to lock her up for war crimes.

Edited by dmcreif on Aug 22nd 2021 at 2:04:53 PM

Okey Dokey!

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