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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I liked the scene with Thanos and Gamora. It's a shame to lose Gamora as a character, but the scene definitely benefitted Thanos's character.
The Clint and Natasha version felt tacked-on. Like they wrote themselves into a corner in the previous film and now had to kill off somebody for the Soul Stone, and just picked Black Widow's name out of a hat. Jumping off a cliff doesn't feel like an appropriate end to her character arc (or Hawkeye's for that matter). It's just a toll booth.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!A lot of the clamor around Natasha has to do with her depiction in TWS, which was refreshingly free of the usual gender stereotypes that accompany Femme Fatale characters, in contrast to her previous appearances (and it did make me a fan of her personally).
Which is part of why her depiction in Endgame was so galling. The sexist implications of that one infamous line in AOU might've been an accident, but the furor around it was quite noticeable with plenty of thinkpieces on exactly why it was so troubling. There's no way the writers wouldn't have become aware of it at some point beforehand, given just how controversial it was.
I can understand that they decided on Natasha dying because of input from female staffers, but that said, you'd think the same team of writers responsible for putting a lot of effort into uncoupling Natasha from sexist stereotypes in TWS, and for giving Peggy a fairly progressive arc in Agent Carter, would be self-aware enough when it came to writing good female characters not to double down on those exact sexist Acceptable Feminine Goals implications to the point of using them as the in-universe justification for her death.
Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 13th 2021 at 7:28:58 AM
How it should have ended had Red Skull yeet himself off the cliff for them
Forever liveblogging the AvengersAs Honest Trailers put it: "Black Widow, who finally gets a primary storyline in one of these movies: killing herself to motivate the boys."
Red Skull's job is basically acting like Tantalus of Greek mythology.
- The Clint and Natasha version felt tacked-on. Like they wrote themselves into a corner in the previous film and now had to kill off somebody for the Soul Stone, and just picked Black Widow's name out of a hat. Jumping off a cliff doesn't feel like an appropriate end to her character arc (or Hawkeye's for that matter). It's just a toll booth.
Honestly, I would've had Black Widow come out between Civil War and Infinity War, had Yelena go with Natasha to Vormir, then had Natasha sacrifice herself so Yelena can live.
Okey Dokey!![]()
Hindsight and all. I don’t know if they knew what was going to be in the black widow movie when they were making Endgame
I personally disagree that Natasha was fridged as the narrative did a decent enough job of establishing that she ultimately did it for herself. But the fact that it was tied to her reproductive/familial status in contrast to Clint's, as part of a consistent and somewhat Anvilicious message of Thicker Than Water, makes it still very troubling at best and mind-numbingly sexist at worst, no matter how much agency she had in that choice.
Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 13th 2021 at 7:22:12 AM
I agree with Vox calling it quasi-fridging
: yes, she's an established well-rounded character, but ultimately this big decision amounted to Acceptable Feminine Goals and Traits and motivating the boys, and still undoubtedly fits into the larger trend (which we're discussing at TRS if anyone is interested :-) )
This sums up my primary problem with the Endgame version of the scene, yeah.
It especially makes little sense why the Avengers picked them to go to Vormir considering they know nothing about the planet except that it’s apparently very deadly but Hawkeye and Widow are the least powerful members and the least experienced about space.
Edited by Tuckerscreator on Aug 13th 2021 at 5:27:47 AM
I remember I did a post about whether it was a Fridging or not a while back.
I ultimately said no, because she did it because it was the only way, and while the others did mourn her, it wasn't done just for that.
Most importantly, Natasha decided on it herself. She ultimately chose how she went out: helping to save the universe, and her oldest friend.
But it sounds like maybe I was off on that, so I'm curious to hear the argument for why it was a fridging.
One Strip! One Strip!If you think about it, Widow and Hawkguy would be better for taking out Starlord who is just one dude who Rhodey sucker punched anyway
Rhodey and Nebula were kinda wasted there
Hm. If they went to Vormir instead Thanos might have showed up drawn by the Nebula signal and discovered the planet early
There a massive rewrite you could do from that premise
Forever liveblogging the AvengersOne version actually had Thanos and his army show up on Vormir. In the ensuing chaos, BW sprints to the cliff edge and throws herself off while Hawkeye is too busy fighting Thanos's forces.
Amusingly enough, Red Skull goes wide-eyed and nopes out of there when Thanos arrives.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!Yeah it’s a puzzler
hah
Edited by Bocaj on Aug 13th 2021 at 8:48:00 AM
Forever liveblogging the Avengers
x5
Everything you just said is correct. Natasha's death is not fridging, because the trope described under Stuffed in the Fridge has pretty specific requirementsnote , and anyone who argues that it qualifies as fridging is engaging in Square Peg, Round Trope and the kind of misuse that is serious enough for us to create a dedicated cleanup thread
in order to purge it all, even if it means having to rebuild the Stuffed in the Fridge page from the ground up to save it. On its own and sufficiently stripped from all of the context around it, Natasha's death would actually be a pretty triumphant Heroic Sacrifice end to a character arc.
It does, however, fall into the same kinds of narrative issues that make true fridging, which would be an otherwise neutral trope (because Tropes Are Tools) if not for its aggregate and disproportionate use on characters from underrepresented groups, especially women, is guilty of. So even if it's not actually true fridging, and the writrs did take some efforts to avert the superficial issues that plague the trope, it's guilty of enough of the specific sins that have tainted true fridging, that not being fridging isn't enough to save it from not being seriously tasteless writing. Hence the description as quasi-fridging.
Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 13th 2021 at 9:21:50 AM

I admit I am very neutral about this because I can’t really care much about Nat.
Edited by slimcoder on Aug 13th 2021 at 3:42:50 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."