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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#131451: Aug 10th 2021 at 7:06:23 AM

Agreed with MatthewWayne. Now that the MCU has established the idea of a cinematic universe, other studios assume they can rush past building the foundation with self-contained small-scale movies and jump right into the big money maker crossovers with minimal setup. Much to the detriment of the few starting movies they do, which get overloaded with setup for future movies to the point it bogs down the movie itself.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#131452: Aug 10th 2021 at 7:19:27 AM

[up][up][up] Even the weaker MCU films have moments that have pay off in the stronger films or shows.

For instance, I've been rewatching Age of Ultron after watching WandaVision and it's amazing how many little details around the Maximoff twins ended up getting payoff in WandaVision. Like:

  • Wanda's discomfort when Pietro is describing their parents' deaths to Ultron: she's uncomfortable not just because Pietro is bringing up such a painful subject, but because they were watching Dick Van Dyke.
  • Her powers act on their own to vaporize the Ultron drones in the church after Pietro dies, similar to her later creation of the Hex, or her powers choking the Westview residents when they confront her.
  • A deleted scene shows Pietro distributing stolen food, medicine and clothes on the streets to other Novi Grad citizens, just before he and Wanda are lured by Ultron to the church. Their father sold bootleg DVD boxsets, so that would mean Pietro took up after his father, though steered away from things that might traumatize his sister.
  • Agatha says the Scarlet Witch is destined to destroy the world. Had Ultron succeeded, Wanda would've technically fulfilled that prophecy as described in the Darkhold: Ultron came to life because Wanda let Tony take the scepter, and then she and Pietro were willing accomplices to Ultron while they thought he just wanted to destroy the Avengers. Every heartbreak Wanda has suffered since could be interpreted as the universe's way of punishing her for choosing to break from her destiny.

Edited by dmcreif on Aug 10th 2021 at 10:20:01 AM

Okey Dokey!
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#131453: Aug 10th 2021 at 8:06:48 AM

I brought this up in the DC Movies thread before, but I actually think DC could have essentially done what they did and forgone much of the Phase I setup, if only because Supes, Batsy, and Wondy were more immediately recognizable in the 'aughts than the Avengers (the big Marvel cinematic properties in the mid-2000s were X-Men, Fantastic Four, and Spider-Man, mind, and we had like eleventy billion Superman and Batman properties). It's just that much of the writing involved in setting up Justice League was.........a hot dark mess.

As for stuff like the Dark Universe, it was kinda dead in the water because neither of the attempts at kickstarting it made any sort of splash on the public consciousness.

Akirakan Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#131454: Aug 10th 2021 at 8:36:32 AM

Meanwhile, the MonsterVerse literally saved cinema.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#131455: Aug 10th 2021 at 8:37:56 AM

Very early cinema worth noting

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#131456: Aug 10th 2021 at 8:38:12 AM

It helps that they were only building up two guys and their mothy friend.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#131457: Aug 10th 2021 at 9:41:07 AM

Ironically Zack Snyder's Justice League ends up proving that the DCEU did need to do the whole Phase 1 build-up because so much of its way-too-long runtime is spent giving establishing introductions to characters that hadn't been introduced yet because they didn't have their own movies. Cyborg gets a whole 15-minute montage essentially speedrunning the first act of a Cyborg movie because it helps understand his deal and it wasn't done previously. Hell, Ray Fisher ragged on Joss Whedon (paraphrasing) "turning Frankenstein into Quasimodo" and how much push-and-pull there was between the two and Geoff Johns on adding Cyborg's "Booyah" Catchphrase and all of that could be easily resolved by doing a Cyborg movie first.

What's made the MCU stand so strong is it slowly built a franchise-wide metatext over time, and it's gotten to the point where the MCU can now freely exploit that metatext both to build up current and even future movies (and now shows) but can also use it to retroactively enrich previous movies as well. And they clearly understand that: one thing commendable about Phase 4 is that it's a franchise-wide "back to the drawing board" as it tries to create a bunch of new building blocks in the aftermath of Avengers: Endgame, as evident by this multiverse-focused Thematic Series, all of the Early-Bird Cameos of the Young Avengers, and this overall emphasis on Passing the Torch.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#131458: Aug 10th 2021 at 9:46:40 AM

The MCU did with movies what they did with comics.

Create the characters, build them up, and them start crossing them over.

It helped that, like the comics, they mostly had one dude running the show initially.

One Strip! One Strip!
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#131459: Aug 10th 2021 at 10:19:19 AM

^^I agree with you. I am saying that *the way Snyder wrote it* it ended up overstuffed. But I don't also think they needed five films to introduce everyone, because S & B should need less introduction.

Anyway, "the mouse house doesn't properly compensate the comic creators" has been common knowledge for some time (Mantlo/Brubaker), but this report alleges they send a flat $5000 and a premiere ticket if they adapt your work:

According to multiple sources, when a writer or artist’s work features prominently in a Marvel film, the company’s practice is to send the creator an invitation to the premiere and a cheque for $5,000 (£3,600). Three different sources confirmed this amount to the Guardian. There’s no obligation to attend the premiere, or to use the $5,000 for travel or accommodation; sources described it as a tacit acknowledgment that compensation was due.

[...]

Several sources who have worked with Marvel say that remuneration for contributing to a franchise that hits it big varies between the $5,000 payment, nothing, or – very rarely – a “special character contract”, which allows a select few creators to claim remuneration when their characters or stories are used. There are other potential ways to earn more – many former writers and artists are made executives and producers on Marvel’s myriad movies, cartoons and streaming series, for example – but those deals depend on factors other than legal obligation.

“I’ve been offered a [special character contract] that was really, really terrible, but it was that or nothing,” says one Marvel creator, who asked not to be named. “And then instead of honouring it, they send a thank you note and are like, ‘Here’s some money we don’t owe you!’ and it’s five grand. And you’re like, ‘The movie made a billion dollars.’”

[...]

Some creators told the Guardian that they did not know that Marvel even had the special character contract like DC. In fact, the Guardian has seen an application for the “Marvel Special Character Contract”, in which creators can formally ask Marvel whether one of their characters qualifies for extra payouts. In the application form, Marvel explicitly reserves the right to tell creators their characters aren’t original enough to get the bonus, warning that “the decisions are final” and not subject to appeal.

Edited by Synchronicity on Aug 10th 2021 at 12:21:28 PM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#131460: Aug 10th 2021 at 10:35:39 AM

I agree with you. I am saying that *the way Snyder wrote it* it ended up overstuffed. But I don't also think they needed five films to introduce everyone, because S & B should need less introduction.

The MCU chose to handle Tom Holland's Spider-Man on the logic that one can always go to the Tobey Maguire trilogy or the Andrew Garfield duology to get his origin story.

Okey Dokey!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#131461: Aug 10th 2021 at 10:40:59 AM

Imagine if Man of Steel handled Superman’s origin like All Star Superman

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#131462: Aug 10th 2021 at 10:44:15 AM

The BIG problem with the Snyder Verse is a lack of communication and eventual course corrections. Snyder had his vision and a plan, it would cover 5 movies and pretty much use up every character in some way by the end. All the Leaguers would have a 'ending' after just 5 films (Mo S, Bv S, JL and the 2 never made JL sequels). Bats- Dead, Lois/Clark- HEA with kids, Diana- Queen, Arthur- King. Barry and Vic I can't recall but the 'Big Guns' would be more or less done after just 5 films in a few years.

WB didn't WANT that, they wanted what Marvel had a HUGE expanded world where they could spin movies, shows, and other media for over a decade a constant stream of millions of dollars that would grow into BILLIONS of dollars of revenue.

And either nobody told Snyder that...or Snyder didn't care and did his thing anyway...and by the time WB found out it was WAY too late to correct.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#131463: Aug 10th 2021 at 10:47:49 AM

BVS burned through a lot of material.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#131464: Aug 10th 2021 at 10:47:53 AM

What course corrections did they try?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#131465: Aug 10th 2021 at 11:06:15 AM

I'd say whatever the hell they were trying to do with the first Suicide Squad's reshoots and calling Whedon to finish the JL movie after Snyder had to step down.

Needless to say, they didn't work.

Edited by Blueace on Aug 10th 2021 at 2:06:37 PM

Wake me up at your own risk.
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#131466: Aug 10th 2021 at 11:14:51 AM

The BIG problem with the Snyder Verse is a lack of communication and eventual course corrections.

I compare this to the course-corrections of the MCU. Shang Chi looks like a partial effort to fix the Mandarin controversy of Iron Man 3. Thor: Ragnarok soft-rebooted the Thor franchise without retconning the first two movies. WandaVision retooled Wanda's origin story slightly in a way that didn't contradict her prior movie appearances so she's an actual sorceress and not just an enhanced.

And you definitely see better communication at most levels in the MCU. See James Gunn providing input towards the Russo brothers for Infinity War and Endgame, and Taika Waititi for Thor: Love and Thunder to maintain consistency for the Guardians of the Galaxy.

I'd say whatever the hell they were trying to do with the first Suicide Squad's reshoots and calling Whedon to finish the JL movie after Snyder had to step down.

They hired the company who did the teaser trailer to edit an alternate cut, then had to edit and do reshoots to try and get something in between the lighthearted Trailer Park cut and David Ayer's edgier cut.

Edited by dmcreif on Aug 10th 2021 at 2:17:09 PM

Okey Dokey!
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#131467: Aug 10th 2021 at 11:18:03 AM

Was the Mandarin controversy something big enough to be "fixed"?

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#131468: Aug 10th 2021 at 11:25:10 AM

[up] There were a lot of people who were disappointed that Ben Kingsley as Trevor Slattery wasn't actually a legitimately terrifying terrorist leader. And it's not too hard to notice that Aldrich Killian isn't exactly one of the MCU's more popular villains.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Aug 10th 2021 at 11:28:18 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#131469: Aug 10th 2021 at 11:28:12 AM

dude the Mandarin was a yellow peril villain even before that,when they toned that aspect there was still the awkward aspect of his name,I think what people were hoping for was the 10 magic rings which never materialized

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#131470: Aug 10th 2021 at 11:28:13 AM

I just find it funny that people pretend to be outraged that the Mandarin was changed when he's not exactly a well-known character.

Granted, Ben Kingsley did a good job, but Killian fits the movie's themes more.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131471: Aug 10th 2021 at 11:29:41 AM

Yup another corrupt rich guy doing corrupt rich guy things.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#131472: Aug 10th 2021 at 11:31:35 AM

[up][up] Eh, there are some people who knew who he was. I have a friend who's a huge Ben Kingsley fan, and was exciteed to see the Mandarin in Iron Man 3, assuming that they gave the Mandarin an Adaptational Nationality to avoid the yellow peril stereotype. He wasn't happy to learn that he was playing Trevor Slattery instead.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Aug 10th 2021 at 11:31:49 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#131473: Aug 10th 2021 at 11:33:03 AM

My problem is again not the twist itself, but the fact that I just found Killian boring. If he was more entertaining then I don't think he would be as hated by the fanbase.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#131474: Aug 10th 2021 at 11:33:25 AM

So, would people be bothered less by the Mandarin twist if Kilian was a different type of villain?

If that is the case, what type of villain specifically would you have preferred (please try to avoid saying "just make him the Mandarin from the comics"). smile

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#131475: Aug 10th 2021 at 11:33:26 AM

I'm hoping that Shang Chi will have some follow-up to All Hail the King.

Okey Dokey!

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