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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#131351: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:04:01 PM

[up] Assuming they don't go on illegal streaming sites tongue

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#131352: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:07:17 PM

Yeah, as much as people were frustrated at the Netflix shows (and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D) not being referenced in the MCU at all, it did prevent said Continuity Lock-Out from happening, and making it less frustrating as a whole to make connections.

With Disney+ and the shows being heavily interweaven, it's going to confuse a lot of people. Sure, we may have more Disney+ viewers because of COVID, but not everyone has it. And China especially is gonna be real lost when they see the trailer for the fourth Captain America movie.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Akirakan Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#131353: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:09:44 PM

My sister and brother-in-law were extremely confused by the after credit scene from Black Widow, since they hadn't watched Falcon and Winter Soldier.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131354: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:12:55 PM

Ironically thats actually intended to sorta set-up Winter Falcon.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#131355: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:13:37 PM

[up][up] In fairness though, that post-credits scene was technically supposed to be Valentina Allegra de Fontaine's first appearance. So I think it's supposed to be intentionally confusing and/or mysterious. To me, I think Val's first appearance is supposed to be a dark mirror of Nick Fury's first appearance in The Stinger of Iron Man, much like how her presence in F&WS is reminiscent of Fury's role in Iron Man 2.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Aug 5th 2021 at 1:14:04 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#131356: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:14:09 PM

[up][up][up]Wasn't Black Widow supposed to be released first, so no one would be familiar with her?

Edited by Tabs on Aug 5th 2021 at 1:14:44 AM

DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#131357: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:15:31 PM

[up]x4 Wasn't Black Widow supposed to premier before FATWS?

Edit:[nja]

Edited by DoubleOG on Aug 5th 2021 at 1:16:36 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#131358: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:17:19 PM

Honestly I see the better comparison point for Shang-Chi being to Mulan (1999) than Mulan (2020). As mentioned earlier, the film's themes and intended audience center heavily around diasporic issues rather than any deliberate attempts to pander to mainland sensibilities (aside from the Fu Manchu and Mandarin issue, but then again, those are the kinds of issues that diasporic Asians have also criticized).

Mulan 1999 didn't perform all that well at the Chinese box office, and online pundits put forth a number of possible reasons why, and Disney figured the folks who argued it was too stereotypical or not authentic enough were correct. More likely, it's just that the mainland has enough homegrown Mulan adaptations throughout their media that this adaption didn't have the novelty Disney thought it did. That, plus the fact that the original Mulan screenplay was written by a second-generation Chinese American, so there's an upper limit to how far it can capture mainland sensibilities.

Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 5th 2021 at 4:22:38 AM

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#131359: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:17:36 PM

I think it's really interesting how her order of appearances got messed up, because if you see her in Black Widow first, you don't really get any idea who this person is beyond probably evil since she convinces Yelena to go after Clint.

But since we were already supposed to be familiar with her in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, it serves to further muddle John Walker's character arc because we were apparently supposed to take him being recruited by Val as "very much probably a bad thing", expressing more a continuation of his arc than a potential closed chapter. The way it's framed in conjunction with his progress in the show, however, it plays far more ambiguous without that added context.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#131360: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:19:48 PM

[up] It's kinda why I really like what we've seen of the Contessa so far. We're not entirely sure who she is, if she can be trusted, or why she's doing what she's doing.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#131361: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:49:39 PM

It definitely adds more to the mystique.

Okey Dokey!
Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#131362: Aug 5th 2021 at 2:04:35 PM

We'll learn more about Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine's backstory in future MCU installments. Since she appears to be American, perhaps it might be an alias for Valerie "Val" Cooper, a liaison to mutants and U.S. Agent in the comics. Plus, Valentina's nickname is "Val" and she has close ties to John Walker, much like the relationship between Valerie and comics John. Or she might be faking the accent and we will know where she came from, probably either France or Italy considering her name.

Edited by Chrononaut70 on Aug 5th 2021 at 2:09:21 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#131363: Aug 5th 2021 at 2:16:38 PM

In the comics Contessa Valentina is a superspy and Nick Fury's on again, off again love interest. She was also Madame Hydra for a while, but that turned out to be a double agent thing with her actually being loyal to Fury all along.

So it's up in the air about where her morality really is. She could be up to something nefarious, she could be a good but amoral government agent, or it could be her putting together a "dark team" of heroes for Fury's benefit, or anything in between.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#131364: Aug 5th 2021 at 2:35:29 PM

I'm guessing evil, and that's what I've been saying ever since the end of Falcon and Winter Soldier.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131365: Aug 5th 2021 at 2:36:45 PM

She seems to be setting up some kind of a Thunderbolts/Dark Avengers team since she's recruiting a Black Widow and Captain America based character.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 5th 2021 at 2:41:49 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#131366: Aug 5th 2021 at 2:40:07 PM

On the flipside, both of her recruits are anti-heroes, rather than villains.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#131367: Aug 5th 2021 at 2:46:11 PM

I actually prefer how things ultimately wound up. Most likely the original intent was for people to speculate who Val was leading up to FatWS which would reveal who she was and set up what her deal was as the next question. Instead with FatWS first she starts off being very plainly introduced into the narrative and her moral ambiguity is then reinforced with BW. And I think that overall works better in terms of just getting right to the point since her whole deal is the bigger question.

Plus given the fanbase's current track-record on fan theories I kinda don't wanna think about what the rumor mill would've been like with speculation on who she really was. Five gets you ten a lot of people would've banked really hard on her being an adult Valeria Richards or some shit.

Why yes I am still salty, can you tell?

Edited by Watchtower on Aug 5th 2021 at 5:46:58 AM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#131368: Aug 5th 2021 at 2:47:27 PM

[up][up] That's true, but there's the implication in TF&WS that she's working closely with Baron Zemo, since she was involved with the death of the remaining Flag-Smashers. Granted, Zemo is more of an Anti-Villain here than in the comics, but I still don't think all of her recruits will be flawed heroes.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Aug 5th 2021 at 2:47:37 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131369: Aug 5th 2021 at 2:49:13 PM

Presuming Zemo is gonna be involved, she has Zemo, Black Widow or whatever Yelena's gonna call herself, and the US Agent.

Leads to the question is is she gonna continue collecting direct Avenger analogues or not.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#131370: Aug 5th 2021 at 2:50:45 PM

Recruiting the loon who wants all superhumans dead? Sure that'll work peachy. And Walker still left with feeling of him going downhill fast, anyway.

Wake me up at your own risk.
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#131371: Aug 5th 2021 at 2:51:40 PM

A lot of people read that ending scene as Val and Zemo secretly being in communication with each other but I honestly think that's a misinterpretation. What's more likely the case is that she heard about the van bombing on the news or through whatever intel she has and is speculating Zemo's involvement, given her weirdly-omniscient knowledge of the situation.

That said whatever is going on with Val I imagine Zemo getting in on it to some degree anyway, especially if it does wind up being MCU Thunderbolts.

Edited by Watchtower on Aug 5th 2021 at 5:52:20 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131372: Aug 5th 2021 at 2:56:28 PM

Heheh I have not read Thunderbolts but looking up the page, I am a little sad we'll prolly never get this quote by Moonstone in the movies.

"Let me EXPLAIN something, Zemo. Let me tell you why I undermined your leadership at every turn. I've got a pretty simple philosophy of life. You want to hear it? It's this: Don't. Get. CAUGHT! Oh, I was stupid at first - I thought my powers made me invincible...so I ended up getting a record, getting caught. I was willing to ride it out, serve my sentence and start anew - but you press-ganged me into your scheme, and there went that. Still, it was a good scheme - posing as heroes - and we made it WORK. We had it all - public support, adulation - the perfect cover to pull any NUMBER of scams - and you went and blew it over just ONE! Who CARES about ruling the world?! Who wants to do that much WORK?! We could have run this con out for YEARS before it got old! But no, you couldn't be smart - not when you could play Hitler like your idiot father!"

Goddamn can imagine someone telling Zemo this. [lol]

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#131373: Aug 5th 2021 at 3:12:47 PM

[up] It's a fun quote, but it would make very little sense in the MCU. From what we can tell, Heinrich Zemo wasn't involved with HYDRA in any way.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131374: Aug 5th 2021 at 3:23:53 PM

Oh yeah I know, you would need to do a lot of work to make it fit into this specific character while maintaining the spirit of the speech.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#131375: Aug 5th 2021 at 3:40:54 PM

That's true, but there's the implication in TF&WS that she's working closely with Baron Zemo, since she was involved with the death of the remaining Flag-Smashers.

I don't recall that. IIRC, it was just Zemo and his butler.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 5th 2021 at 3:41:23 AM


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