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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#131326: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:10:50 PM

You... didn't site any of that. This is the first you're even posting about it.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#131327: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:10:58 PM

Said simply, they prefer a Pretty Boy instead of a Hunk like Liu for looks.

I remember Ludi Lin was rumored to be in the running at one point, for a concrete example.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131328: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:11:43 PM

The most I know about the Chinese audience overseas is that they hate the blatant pandering like in the later Transformers films, and don't like the excessive pushing of the actress Jing Tian by Legendary because shes regarded as a not very good actress who got her roles due to nepotism.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#131329: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:12:34 PM

Looked up the Variety article, which pretty bluntly says this:

But many online in China are unaware that the 2021 film has re-imagined the old Fu Manchu character, or simply didn’t care.

The article specifies that Fu Manchu is something that was concerning to community leaders (which makes sense), not the Chinese public. It's basically the equivalent of something like how, say, Django Unchained pissed off several vocal black leaders, but not the viewing public as a whole, to which is was largely successful.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 5th 2021 at 12:16:30 PM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#131330: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:16:42 PM

Is the thing about Chinese people not responding well to "slant eyed characters" a semi-euphemistic way of discussing the Insane Troll Logic that somehow the casting of Simu Liu and Awkwafina is racist because of the actors' appearances.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#131331: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:16:57 PM

[up][up] Pretty much this.

The public backlash has largely been centered around not liking Simu Liu and criticizing Hollywood for not catering to Chinese beauty standards for a Chinese character. Which is already in itself a mess of Unfortunate Implications, at least partly because MCU Shang-Chi has clearly been re-appropriated from an Asian-American perspective.

Edited by Watchtower on Aug 5th 2021 at 3:17:08 PM

Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#131332: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:17:49 PM

Fair enough, but there were complaints by some Mainland Chinese viewers about the presence of the Mandarin as noted in the article.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#131333: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:18:10 PM

[up][up][up] Having read the article the poster is talking about, the section they're talking about is mostly just an extrapolation of what we've already been talking about here: Simu is criticized for looking like what Americans think attractive Asians look like, but their features are distasteful to the actual Chinese audience.

It reminds me of, say, criticisms Tyler Perry gets for adhering to what's perceived as safe, white audience-approved standards of black beauty in his casting.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 5th 2021 at 12:20:23 PM

Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#131334: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:20:07 PM

Either way, viewers in Mainland China, Taiwan and Hong Kong won't exactly warm up to this film. The Chinese diaspora, on the other hand, will like it and I don't think it's going to bomb but neither will it be a billion-dollar hit and it will do just fine at the box office.

Edited by Chrononaut70 on Aug 5th 2021 at 12:22:01 PM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#131335: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:20:11 PM

I don't know how to put this well, because I don't want to give any credence to that argument, but while I suppose there is some merit, from a racist perspective, that Awkwafina doesn't accurately depict a Chinese appearance, since she is half-Korean and her Chinese ancestry are the "Cantonese" Chinese who emigrated decades ago, Simu Liu was actually born in Mainland China, so it's insane to argue that he somehow doesn't look the way a Chinese person is "supposed to look".

@Known Unknown - It's kind of similar to the criticisms of Tyler Perry, but from the other side of things. Because in this case, the Chinese (and apparently also the Hong Kong and Taiwan) audience want the leads to have move "white" features and are angry that they don't.

Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 5th 2021 at 2:22:20 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131336: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:20:15 PM

[up][up] For what, he hasn't been a stereotype in years.

Plus hell if Marvel can turn Man-Ape into something not offensive, then Mandarin is also fair game.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 5th 2021 at 12:20:41 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#131337: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:21:16 PM

Heck, they have succeeded more than once in making Mandarin non-racist.

The legend has returned.
DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#131338: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:24:21 PM

Wouldn't it be best to wait and see what their reaction to the movie is when it releases?

Edited by DoubleOG on Aug 5th 2021 at 12:24:39 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131340: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:29:26 PM

[up][up][up] The one from the CG cartoon series was pretty cool since he got a kickass suit of armor.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#131341: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:40:20 PM

@Hodor: First off I strongly recommend getting off the point that Chinese beauty standards have to do with "whiteness". It has nothing to do with it and it's a frankly Western-centric viewpoint to push.

The general argument I've seen is that Hollywood should mold to Chinese beauty standards for a Chinese character much like how it molds to American beauty standards for Americans, and that Simu is too "ordinary" in comparison. Chinese beauty standards particularly de-emphasize the epicanthic fold (aka "slanted eyes"), and the argument goes on to criticize Americans for relying on stereotypically-prominent "slanted eyes" as an Asian body trait.

And I honestly think there are some interesting kernels to consider when it comes to different cultural values and continuing to challenge what may be taken for granted as progressive ideals, but there's also still a lot of messiness and ugliness in this conversation, especially when a lot of it amounts to shallowly dissecting actual people over their physical features.

Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#131342: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:45:25 PM

Yeah. Viewers in certain countries have very different tastes, beliefs and values than in America and most of the West.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131343: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:52:24 PM

This is rather unrelated but in terms of Western/Easter collaborations, we did previously get The Great Wall film and uhhhhhh.

It will be pretty hard to top this in terms of stupidity.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Chrononaut70 Since: Dec, 2020
#131344: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:55:20 PM

And that film also failed as well, particularly due to having Matt Damon, even though he isn't the lead character of the Great Wall.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#131345: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:55:25 PM

I have a feeling that with Shang-Chi and Eternals, China's love of the MCU is going to be seriously tested as a whole. With the exception of Black Panther, I'm pretty sure most of the films have done remarkably well over there.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131346: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:58:07 PM

Is Disney+ available in China?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Akirakan Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#131347: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:58:39 PM

[up][up]Even Black Panther did relatively well in China. It made just around as much as other of the solo films like Doctor Strange and Ant-Man.

[up] No.

Edited by Akirakan on Aug 5th 2021 at 2:59:14 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#131348: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:58:39 PM

[up][up] To my knowledge, no.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Aug 5th 2021 at 12:58:48 PM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#131349: Aug 5th 2021 at 12:59:15 PM

Okay so their missing out on Wanda Vision, Winter Falcon, and Loki.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#131350: Aug 5th 2021 at 1:04:00 PM

I'm gonna be really curious what the international reaction to Multiverse of Madness is going to be, since a lot of countries don't have Disney Plus and won't pick up the context set up by WandaVision and Loki (2021). Phase Four is really going to test the limit of how much Continuity Lock-Out is going to affect people's enjoyment of the films.


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