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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#130951: Jul 31st 2021 at 12:44:49 PM

The Raimi movies had Osborne's hostages all rallying to defend Spidey, the first Webb movie had that scene with the construction workers all lining up some steel girders so Peter could swing on them...and y'know, that stuff is goofy as hell, but it still works.

I think the former works fine, as it’s a bit more low-key (they just pelt trash at Goblin, really), but the crane scene feels a bit ridiculous. I suppose if you want an example of him inspiring people, something like that is nice, but then you have the shot of the American flag on the wall, which just makes it too goofy for my taste.

I overall think Holland’s Spidey is decent, but I agree that the more “down on his luck” aspects are missed, especially with not even a mention of Uncle Ben. Not wanting to do the origin for the third time is fine, but surely a flashback would have been acceptable, even one as brief as what we saw in Spiderverse.

That said, since Diana mentioned Far From Home, I’ll say that I do like most of that one…but I do think the whole EDITH thing is…bad. I mean, it feels out of character for Tony - which, say what you will about him, but after the events of the Iron Man trilogy, Age of Ultron, and Civil War, I find it very hard to believe that his big, final contribution to world saving would be “a satellite that launches drones capable of killing anyone on Earth in minutes, and is controlled by a pair of glasses that I’m not only giving away, but am giving to an impressionable teenager”. And of course, this was pretty much the main threat of The Winter Soldier, only I guess it’s not powered by Hydra’s evil algorithm anymore, so that makes it okay (this isn’t text, mind you, but it’s the only real difference that I can see)?

Like, Peter says that he doesn’t deserve this kind of power, but let’s face it, no one does.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Jul 31st 2021 at 3:47:46 PM

Oh God! Natural light!
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#130952: Jul 31st 2021 at 12:47:51 PM

I suppose if you want an example of him inspiring people, something like that is nice, but then you have the shot of the American flag on the wall, which just makes it too goofy for my taste.

...okay I genuinely forgot that part, forget everything I said about that scene, what the FUCK.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#130953: Jul 31st 2021 at 12:58:31 PM

Those early post 9/11 days. Performative jingoism became the thing.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#130954: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:02:41 PM

Performative jingoism has always been a thing.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#130955: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:03:09 PM

Let's be fair as well: most of the criticism on the lack of Uncle Ben has nothing to actually do with Ben himself and everything to do with Tony Stark and the way the MCU ties him with parts of the Spider-Man mythos. And sure, it's really easy to drag Stark for a lot of shit - as noted even some of the stuff circa FFH is pretty fuck-headed - but a lot of Hate Dom really have Ron the Death Eater takes on Stark that don't acknowledge the validity of having him as a superhero mentor to a still-young Spider-Man.

Like, I'd definitely love to see MCU Uncle Ben myself and think a lot of the swerving is silly, but it doesn't need to nor should it be at the expense of Iron Man like I've legit seen some people suggest.

EDIT: [up] it's always been a thing but post-9/11 American jingoism was a pretty particularly horrible flavor of it. It's like the whole country had a 5-year psychotic break, it was honestly pretty nuts in retrospect.

Edited by Watchtower on Jul 31st 2021 at 4:04:57 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#130956: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:04:39 PM

I don't recall the American flag appeared in the Webb movies, I think that scene was during the climax of Spider-Man 3 when Peter arrives to rescue MJ from Venom and Sandman.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#130957: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:13:26 PM

You can find the scene in question right here, at around 1:20:

It’s the fact they just place it right on the wall for no apparent reason that does it for me. Not even on a flagpole or anything.

Oh God! Natural light!
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#130958: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:14:11 PM

it's always been a thing but post-9/11 American jingoism was a pretty particularly horrible flavor of it. It's like the whole country had a 5-year psychotic break, it was honestly pretty nuts in retrospect.

Maybe I'm cynical but I genuinely can't see much of a difference between it and the jingoism of [insert random decade in the 20th century here].

Let's be fair as well: most of the criticism on the lack of Uncle Ben has nothing to actually do with Ben himself and everything to do with Tony Stark and the way the MCU ties him with parts of the Spider-Man mythos. And sure, it's really easy to drag Stark for a lot of shit - as noted even some of the stuff circa FFH is pretty fuck-headed - but a lot of Hate Dom really have Ron the Death Eater takes on Stark that don't acknowledge the validity of having him as a superhero mentor to a still-young Spider-Man.

Like, I'd definitely love to see MCU Uncle Ben myself and think a lot of the swerving is silly, but it doesn't need to nor should it be at the expense of Iron Man like I've legit seen some people suggest.

Honestly a good chunk of it has been because people just really cannot stand Tony. In today's political climate where the contradictions of capitalism are becoming more and more chaotic and people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos become the poster boys for amoral bourgeois exploiters, Tony Stark and "good rich guy" figures like him are treated with disdain. Personally, while I'm *kind of* fine with the basic idea of Tony as a mentor, I also just really don't like Tony as a character, nor do I like the direction the MCU went with Peter that just ties him way too much into Iron Man's whole mythos. So far, the villains of both the MCU Spider-Man movies are people who held indemnity with Tony first and foremost.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#130959: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:17:43 PM

Wait when was this movie again?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#130960: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:17:51 PM

I don't know. I felt like the villains rivalry was far more with with Peter and not Tony. They started off hating Stark, but by the end they, especially Mysterio, have a far bigger grudge against Peter.

Edited by Bullman on Jul 31st 2021 at 3:18:41 AM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#130961: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:18:32 PM

I can get that. I think most people can't even believe a good rich white guy can exist, so attempts to make a character like that fail from the get go, no matter what happens.

The fact that Tony has a lot of genuine fuck ups under his belt likely doesn't help.

One Strip! One Strip!
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#130962: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:19:46 PM

I mean, this was ten years after 9/11. The first Raimi film at least had the excuse of only being the year after (to the point that an early trailer actually featured the Twin Towers prominently), so I can understand the desire to honor the people of New York and express solidarity. This feels like it’s trying to ride the coattails of that sort of thing.

At least the Spider-Man baddies aren’t scary foreigners, so it’s not, like, DIRECTED jingoism.

So far, the villains of both the MCU Spider-Man movies are people who held indemnity with Tony first and foremost.

Yeah, that’s another thing. I do think they do a decent job of giving Peter something of a rapport with them, but considering how many Spidey villains develop a personal enmity with him in the comics and such, it is a bit disappointing that he has to share that with Tony, when quite frankly he has enough guys who blame him for their problems as it is.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Jul 31st 2021 at 4:22:11 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#130963: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:20:17 PM

I think some exceptions like Venom aside, most Spider-Man villains only get a big grudge against him after he's done some solid thwarting.

It's fine that they start off mad at someone else provided their hate belongs to Peter when its said and done.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#130964: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:23:28 PM

I do have a question though. Is Mysterio really Peter's Arch-Enemy in the MCU? I remember seeing an entry for it on his character page and finding it weird. I don't know if it's still there.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#130965: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:23:33 PM

Yeah, I feel like whoever goes after Peter next will have a perfectly good reason to be pissed at him first and foremost this time.

The legend has returned.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#130966: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:23:44 PM

[up][up][up] A valid strategy, though Vulture seems to have shed that by Homecoming’s end, and Mysterio is (probably) dead, so there’s not really a strong likelihood of developing that.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Jul 31st 2021 at 4:24:03 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#130967: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:32:25 PM

I've brought it up previously and have thought about it more since, but I really do think people overplay how much Iron Man's really stealing Spidey's villains. Vulture and Mysterio both start off with grievances against Stark (the former legitimate, the latter petty), but by the ends they're far more personal foes of Peter than they ever were to Tony. To Toomes Tony's still just the asshole at the top that ruined his job, while Peter is his daughter's prom date trying to screw with his new line of work. And as for Beck, Beck comes to hate Peter so much that he goes out of his way to orchestrate a posthumous unmasking and vilification of Spidey just to spitefully ruin his life after the fact.

And we're talking about Webb's Amazing films, those movies were setting it up so that every major villain was going to be tied by some degrees of separation to Oscorp's experiments. Tony Stark's influence pales in comparison.

jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#130969: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:35:17 PM

I’d be more accepting of them not doing Uncle Ben if they hadn’t just replaced him with Tony as Peter’s emotional crutch instead, which undercuts the idea of them choosing to do so because they want to avoid plots we’ve already seen when, actually, it’s just “we’re going to do those plot beats, but with Tony.” Which… yeah… feeds into the complaint that his films are more about Tony than they are about Peter’s actual mythos.

But that ultimately isn’t my most significant problem with MCU Peter, it’s just maybe a… symptom? I’ll do a whole thing about it later when I think about it more.

As for the film, I think parts of - very specifically parts of - the Garfield movies are some of the best Spidey live action content out there. I still say that the opening sequence of Amazing Spider-Man 2 is the greatest Spider-Man sequence set to film that isn’t in Spider-Verse. It’s just that the rest of Amazing 2 increasingly becomes crap the longer it goes on.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 31st 2021 at 1:37:50 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#130970: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:41:46 PM

Amazing 2 fell into the try to rush a cinematic universe disease

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#130971: Jul 31st 2021 at 1:51:31 PM

See, the thing is, I don't think "Tony's taken Uncle Ben's place" is really a fair complaint, because the only thing they really have in common is that they're both older mentors to Peter who are dead and Peter feels bad about it.

Like, by the time we meet Peter, he's already in a place of "with great power comes great responsibility", because Ben is already dead and that part of his character development has already happened, they skipped it because we didn't need to see it happen again. Arguably, Homecoming feels a bit like a retread, but I think the circumstances of "I think I can be doing bigger things than putzing around this neighborhood doing the small stuff" is significantly different from "Screw you and yours, I've got mine".

Even Tony dying hits Peter different than Ben. When Ben dies, it's a direct result of Peter's inaction coming back to haunt him, that's why he becomes a superhero in the first place and again, why they skipped it, because we've already seen it. Tony dying... honestly I think in terms of Peter's development, it's more of his Gwen Stacy. The loss of someone close to him after he's already a superhero with experience, the thing that motivates him to say "what I'm doing is not enough/I'm not doing this right". There's also the added legacy hanging over his head that Ben's death could never saddle him with, the idea that he has to step up because one of Earth's main protectors are dead, which feeds even more into the "I'm not good enough" angle.

I don't know, I wish they'd give Ben a more direct reference as much as the next person, but the more times I see the "Uncle Tony" complaint the more it gets to me, because it feels like a really superficial understanding of Peter's arc so far.

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#130972: Jul 31st 2021 at 3:15:08 PM

[up][up] Gwen death, Sinister Six, Peter's parents, and Harry Osborn all in ONE MOVIE.

Edited by Mizerous on Jul 31st 2021 at 6:15:26 AM

Just Makima.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#130973: Jul 31st 2021 at 3:28:26 PM

In a better position now to give my more full take on why MCU Peter is kind of lacking.

The short of it is that the MCU is way too attached to Peter as an "adoptable son" character who needs and pursues approval from and association with authority in order to feel validated and is constantly woobified by his association with his parental figures, and way too invested in keeping him that way for as long as possible.

This is, not for nothing, a large part of what makes him popular with the audience. Adoptable son characters are fire right now. Entire teenage fandoms are created based on the inclusion of characters the fanbase can call cinnamon roll and meme that Rosa quote from Brooklyn 99 with. But they're as a result so far unwilling to move him past that, even though at the end of every movie they want him to have learned to act for himself.

This results in an effect similar to Rey in Star Wars, where at the end of every movie he learns an Aesop that, at the beginning of the next movie, the Reset Button is pushed for in order to put him back to square one where he's the most marketable. At the end of Homecoming he learns "I don't need to be an Avenger like Tony to be a true hero," but he needs to be the kid who needs Tony's guidance for Infinity War / Endgame to work, so it's quietly ignored, and fast forward to FFH where he learns "I don't need to literally be Tony to be a true hero" which is superficially different but ultimately not especially so.

And now it's four movies in and we're still going "hopefully they'll show him grow into his own as a hero in the next movie."

The usage of Tony as a replacement for Ben is part and parcel for this, as well as another problem. The frank issue is that they went overboard with the Ben erasure. They didn't just, say, set the movie after Ben's death but still have the lessons he learned be present in the story. They outright cut his entire influence out of the narrative, which meant that suddenly Spider-Man the character was bereft of an emotional core which they needed fill. Enter Tony. Now, this does lead to some differences. The Peter we meet in Homecoming is a glory hound who is a hero in pursuit of personal advancement, which is the kind of character beat that works if your mentor figure is Tony - a character who exudes celebrity personal excellence but turns out to have more depth than he seems.

But it eventually coalesces into the same narrative: that Peter, in attempts to be selfish, fails his mentor and has to suffer the consequences, yet rallies back by holding onto the lesson that said mentor taught them - Tony isn't literally dead in the second half of Homecoming, but the fact that he phased Peter out of his life due to his mistakes has the same effect: Tony, ironically, teaches Peter effectively "if you don't have responsibility, you shouldn't have power," which again is superficially different but ultimately the same Aesop. And the Ben comparisons really shine in FFH, a movie all about Peter suffering survivor's guilt and trying to figure out if he's worth being a hero in the fallout.

There's writing issues with this in general, but if we're talking why this makes him come off as a weaker Spider-Man incarnation, specifically, its because... well... it doesn't really capture what makes Spider-Man so recognizable as a character, in fact rather avoids it, and instead creates a largely new character with the same name who became very popular (pretty much from the moment you say "MCU Peter is a character whose main conflict is his pursuit of approval from his authority figures"). It's a popular joke to say that Homecoming is more a Robin movie than a Spider-Man one, but there's some truth to it: you could change Peter into Tim Drake in the movie, and while you'd have to change the setting to be more dark and Gotham-y, there probably wouldn't be much about the plot you'd have to change - it just resonates better with that character's experience.

It a form of Adaptation Displacement, effectively. Which is fine, since people like it, but at the same time it's why - say - Spider-Verse is absolutely the best Spider-Man film, because it's not only a very good, well-directed movie, but instead of avoiding approaching or outlining the themes that made Spider-Man, it attempts and succeeds at being a Reconstruction that rebuilds those themes for the next generation with a new character without being too bogged down by the older continuity, taking the classic concept into a new direction. Or to put it another way, Spider-Verse succeeded with flying colors at the thing MCU Spidey promised but didn't deliver.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 31st 2021 at 3:34:06 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#130974: Jul 31st 2021 at 5:01:22 PM

The frank issue is that they went overboard with the Ben erasure. They didn't just, say, set the movie after Ben's death but still have the lessons he learned be present in the story. They outright cut his entire influence out of the narrative, which meant that suddenly Spider-Man the character was bereft of an emotional core which they needed fill.

Yeah, exactly. This isn't asking for very overt on-the-nose mentions of Uncle Ben. This is "establishing the important role Uncle Ben played in initially motivating Peter to become Spider-Man".

Honestly, that whole point comparing Peter to Rey never really crossed my mind until you described it that way.

Edited by dmcreif on Jul 31st 2021 at 8:14:10 AM

Okey Dokey!
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#130975: Jul 31st 2021 at 5:18:36 PM

I disagree and agree at the same time. For a fan perspective while I like into the Spider-Verse more, from a business standpoint Far From Home did much better. So really they lose nothing by losing Uncle Ben. I don't like it, but as much as we like to complain your average fan or moviegoer doesn't care about Uncle Ben anymore than they care about a random parent who died before the story.

I still also think a lot of people are overplaying how much impact Iron man has on the villains. Because by the end their beef is with Peter. Also by the end of Far From Home he comes off as far more mature to me.

I also can't see where you going with the Rey comparison as they aren't really that similar in terms of character or story.

Edited by Bullman on Jul 31st 2021 at 7:23:54 AM

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