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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#129551: Jun 29th 2021 at 1:18:02 PM

Marvels been lax about it for years really

Count Nefaria started as an Avengers villain, went to go bother the X Men and killed Thunderbird, and then became evil Superman and went back to being an Avengers villain

Dr Doom dropping by to harass non RICHARRRRDS heroes was such a thing that the She Hulk series played with it by using Doctor Bong instead

Sandman dabbled in being a Fantastic Four foe

Edited by Bocaj on Jun 29th 2021 at 4:18:34 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#129552: Jun 29th 2021 at 1:55:16 PM

Kingpin went from a Spider-Man villain to a Daredevil villain and then back again.

Madame Masque was an Iron Man villain and then she became the Hawkeyes’s nemesis after Kate impersonated her once.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#129553: Jun 29th 2021 at 2:05:04 PM

I think it’s more just there’s a distinction between villains that have some sort of a personal rivalry or enmity with a hero and the other folk who are just rabble.

Like how Bullseye tends to fight a lot of heroes and get himself involved in a lot of stuff like that one time he was Deadpool’s frenemy or his tenure on the Dark Avengers but he still has a special place in his heart for how much he utterly loathes Daredevil.

Or say Scorpion who has been emphasized as also a Venom villain because of Gargan’s tenure as Venom and so he feels a particular rivalry with whoever’s wearing the symbiote, Eddie Brock in particular.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#129554: Jun 29th 2021 at 2:06:22 PM

[up][up]Kingpin is kinda unique in that he's shared between the two.

Heck Tombstone in Spectacular spiderman. Takes a lot from comic Kingpin

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#129555: Jun 29th 2021 at 2:21:16 PM

[up]I think that's because Spectacular wasn't allowed to use Kingpin, being a Sony production and not an in-house Marvel one.

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#129556: Jun 29th 2021 at 2:23:19 PM

I feel like being part of someone's rogues gallery just means you have a specific connection to them you don't have with others. Doc Ock can face the Hulk as many times as he wants, but Spidey's the one who he has a connection with to the point of body jacking.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#129558: Jun 29th 2021 at 2:36:54 PM

Honestly, I can't help but feel like Rogues Galleries are an unnecessary genre convention. They make sense for DC because every hero is divided into their own specific city. Batman stays in Gotham, Superman stays in Manhattan, Flash stays in Central City, Green Lantern stays in Coast City, and they all fight the respective villains who menace those specific places.

But the Marvel universe isn't like that. Half of Marvel's heroes live in New York City and everyone travels around a lot. There aren't clear jurisdictional divisions like there are at DC. There's no reason that, like, Doctor Octopus should be exclusively Spider-Man's villain, a character who only ever menaces Spider-Man and for whom only Spider-Man ever shows up to thwart.

And as the years have gone by, Marvel's gotten a bit more lax about that. We have plenty of stories where Iron Man fights Malekith or Thor fights Galactus or Spider-Man fights the Juggernaut. The lines of which villain belongs to what hero blur from time to time.

Hopefully, some day, they can shatter entirely.

For certain villains, it could be a case of simply not wanting to cross paths with someone way out of their league. As mentioned, the Shocker largely sticks to fighting Spider-Man because he doesn't want to be in the crosshairs of someone much more powerful and ruthless like Thor or the Hulk.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#129559: Jun 29th 2021 at 2:45:10 PM

However he once ran over the Punisher

It was great

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#129561: Jun 29th 2021 at 3:15:29 PM

Marvel doesn't do the same kinds of rogues galleries as DC does - they mostly just do it partway. Each hero has some villains that are more personal to them, and a host of others that aren't. None of those villains are specifically tied to them (indeed, Doc Ock has fought other heroes with relative frequency), but there are a handful for each hero that have more of a stake in fighting that hero specifically, and thus are largely attached to those heroes.

Beyond that, rogues are separated by tone. Yes, anyone could and indeed does fight Sandman. But he was designed to match the tone of Spider-Man's series, which hasn't changed, so he's a Spidey villain predominantly (the tonal differences are less dramatic than, say, with DC's characters (ie, the reason most of Batman's villains don't fight other characters being that they're mostly noir villains that often don't work outside of Gotham City) but they're still noticeable).

This is a setup that has always worked fine, so I don't know why there's a pressing need for it to be "shattered" now.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#129562: Jun 29th 2021 at 4:50:38 PM

The only Marvel hero that really has a defined bona-fide Rogues GalleryTM is Spider-Man tbh. Then the X-Men to a lesser extent but only because basically every villain who turns out to be a mutant winds up getting swallowed into that corner sooner or later. Beyond that most heroes will only usually have one or two defined main villains, with some of the more popular ones having a good handful or so. But nothing to the extent of DC, where most of the main Justice Leaguers individually have a Rogues Gallery on par with Spidey, including Flash's literally-named Rogues. I can't actually recall off the top of my head a DC bad guy who's straight-up shared between two heroes the way that, say, Kingpin is with Spidey and Daredevil or Juggernaut is with Spidey and the X-Men.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#129563: Jun 29th 2021 at 5:31:39 PM

I feel like a lot of the villains that are also part of the Suicide Squad count at least somewhat.

The legend has returned.
Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
#129564: Jun 29th 2021 at 6:14:33 PM

[up]x2 I'd argue Luthor and Brainiac, while still associated with Superman, have become persistent fixtures in Justice League stories. Beyond them, there are some assassin types (like Deathstroke and Lady Shiva) who tend to show up in multiple different series.

Edited by Aleistar on Jun 29th 2021 at 9:14:45 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#129565: Jun 29th 2021 at 6:15:44 PM

And of course there's Darkseid whose long since graduated as a New Gods villain to the grand overlord to all of DC.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#129566: Jun 29th 2021 at 6:45:20 PM

Honestly at this point Darkseid's more of a Superman villain than a New Gods one, lol. And even then it's telling that with Luthor, Brainiac, and Darkseid we're talking about Superman sharing them with...the team that he's the main face of. It's kinda like saying that Loki's shared between Thor and the Avengers.

I'd say Deathstroke and Shiva are closer to what I was thinking, at least in terms of the spirit of the idea.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#129567: Jun 29th 2021 at 7:41:11 PM

A lot of the Avengers specific villains went on to menace the heroes in solo books, so I think it's more likely to work the other way around, especially for Superheroes who face a team.

Deathstroke faces Batman and Green Arrow as much as the Titans these days.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#129568: Jun 29th 2021 at 8:05:37 PM

Mongul started doing double duty as a Superman foe and a Green lantern (specifically Hal Jordan) enemy after he nuked Star City back during Reign of the Supermen.

I think Cyborg Superman also became both a Superman and Lantern foe.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#129569: Jun 29th 2021 at 8:09:04 PM

That is a favored bit of intersectionality of mine.

During the Sinestro Corps War when forming his corps Sinestro managed to involve the Cyborg-Superman, Superboy-Prime, and the Anti-Moniter as top made men in his corps.

Thats 3 non-GL heavy hitters, pretty powerful team there.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#129570: Jun 29th 2021 at 8:14:25 PM

Indeed.

Rogues' Gallery Transplant is a thing, but I kinda prefer when some villains fight more than one hero, or some heroes go up against villains outside their wheelhouse.

I honestly think Spiderman is the best for this. He's not only worked with everyone, but probably fought everyone (villain and hero) as well.

Thinking about it, the tendency for some villains to go from fighting one hero to another might stem from how territorial some writers are, especially back in the day.

I'm hoping it's less of an issue with the movies, though they have the issue of whether they can get the actor or not.

One Strip! One Strip!
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#129571: Jun 29th 2021 at 8:19:08 PM

The TV shows have villains face other heroes a lot, and it's not as big a deal there. Doctor Doom was the main villain of two separate Spider-Man cartoons.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#129572: Jun 29th 2021 at 8:20:48 PM

Doom was like the only FF character to actually appear in Avengers Assemble.

And Reverse-Flash was the main antagonist of Suicide Squad: Hell to Pay and one of the seasons of Legends of Tomorrow.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
ClancyGardener life is a state of mind from 53 miles west of Venus Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#129574: Jun 30th 2021 at 11:20:43 AM

[up]Doom's being doing that since the 80s. He showed up in the 1981 Spider-Man cartoon because the producer wanted a Darth Vader-style villain, and Marvel went "we have one of those!" Hence, Doctor Doom.

XMenMutant22 The Feline Follies of Felix the Cat Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#129575: Jun 30th 2021 at 11:41:14 AM

[up]x3: Actually, Thing appeared a few of times in Assemble's early seasons.

The Fantastic Four, as a whole team, did appear as an extended cameo in Hulk and the Agents of S.M.A.S.H.. (Seen below)

Also, I'm pretty sure Annihius was the Starter Villain of that series.

Edited by XMenMutant22 on Jun 30th 2021 at 2:44:51 PM


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