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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#129326: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:26:13 AM

The premise of Loki is basically that he's Thor pre-character development (a royal brat who thinks the world spins around him) but made worse (as I've made myself clear: Thor's and Loki's misdeeds are different by several orders of magnitude, no matter how much leather pants you put on Loki or death consumption on Thor) and favouring trickery rather than open battle.

I really actually wish they would have gone with the Loki from the 2004 miniseries from day one. That Loki is much more of a thorough fiend with a sympathetic side (more on the end of "I'm lashing out my own inadequacies on the world, blind to the fact Thor is my only true friend") and also much uglier, with the crooked teeth and sallow skin. I am 900% sure if MCU Loki looked like this rather than a dashing young lad we'd have a lot fewer debates about how genocide is fine if you had a stressful week.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#129327: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:27:57 AM

Because he’s an asshole. It’s not fucking complex.

Putting aside the fact that you're saying that Loki, the picture of complexity, isn't actually complex, if he were "just an asshole", why was he Thor's loyal companion for years before the coronation? Why did he risk his life on Svartalfheim in a way that he definitely couldn't have survived? Why didn't he let Kurse kill Thor before attacking Kurse?

[up] I am not saying that genocide is fine. Stop Death Eatering me. I am pointing out how Thor's and Odin's genocide gets excused and downplayed while Loki's is made to define his character and you get shouted down for even suggesting that maybe he could redeem himself like his family did.

Edited by Ayasugi on Jun 20th 2021 at 3:31:46 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#129328: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:29:48 AM

The thing with Odin, it does not matter.

Odin's own crimes does not in any way absolve Loki of jackshit. Odin may bear some responsibility for being a crap parent but Loki's choices are his own.

By that logic Hela is completely blameless of her crimes just because Odin raised her to be that way. If we go down that fucking rabbit-hole then effectively no one deserves to be blamed for anything.

Its essentially the horseshit Naruto where all the atrocities caused by various psychopathic warlords was forgiven because "ancient evil God made me do it."

[up][up] Wait which miniseries?

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 20th 2021 at 12:32:51 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#129329: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:31:08 AM

[up][up][up]Interestingly, when a younger and more handsome version of Loki ends up Driven to Villainy due to the stuff I mentioned earlier, they figuratively and literally put on a mask that makes them look like the ugly Loki in the image you linked. As they put it, this was the only way anyone could accept them because they all wanted the evil Loki back.

Edited by M84 on Jun 21st 2021 at 3:32:16 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#129330: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:35:37 AM

I’d say Odin is not blameless, since he helped perpetuate a good/evil narrative with the Jotunn with all Jotunn viewed as evil inhuman monsters, and Loki has internalized that view.

He might rage against being Odinson, but he will never view himself as Laufeyson.

But it’s undeniable that Loki does hold responsibility for his actions and has to pay for them, because it does not justify it regardless.

Same way Thor looked at Hela. He might be more respectful of his dad since he raised him, but he now understands his dad was a shitty person who he has to clean the mess up of, but that doesn’t mean it absolves Hela of all sin.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#129331: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:35:40 AM

"In the comics, the dysfunctionality goes back to Odin's father Bor and Odin's brothers. "

So you are sayign there is a basis for a odisson sitcomtongue

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#129332: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:38:20 AM

But it’s undeniable that Loki does hold responsibility for his actions and has to pay for them, because it does not justify it regardless.

I agree with that. I just don't see why it's assumed that he never will, ever, particularly when others like Thor and Odin were allowed the time to improve (and, in Odin's case, not even pay for his crimes). Same thing with Hela, too; Odin raised her to be a killer, and when he wanted to stop and she didn't, he wrote her off as irredeemable and sentenced her to an exile that all but guaranteed she'd never learn the value of preserving life. It all feels very Calvinistic; some characters are pre-ordained to be redeemed and thus given all the chances, and others are eternal sinners and not given anything more than the most perfunctory offer.

Edited by Ayasugi on Jun 20th 2021 at 3:42:08 PM

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#129333: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:43:36 AM

It also helps that Thor was raised with Loki, so taking his and his dads crap is a lot easier to deal with than a sister he has no emotional connection to.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#129334: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:45:38 AM

It didn't help that his first impression of Hela was not a good one.

Disgusted, but not surprised
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#129335: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:50:27 AM

Loki was given time/opportunities to change or repent though. He just didn't take then. He kept on doubling down on his bad choices.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#129336: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:52:42 AM

Until he did and dies to Thanos in defiance.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#129337: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:55:10 AM

Is one issue of ragnarok that Hela have very little conection with thor and loki, so their confrotnation lack punch in that regard.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#129338: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:57:33 AM

[up][up][up] But he did take them in TDW. Then he died, and then his actual turnaround and sacrifice was retconned into a plot to steal the throne.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#129339: Jun 20th 2021 at 9:14:30 AM

I don't think you can call something retconned if it is established in the same film it was introduced. If nothing else Ragnarok is the retcon here by making Loki's scheme to usurp Odin be fine and dandy. The Dark World shows it as clearly ominous.

[up][up] Wait which miniseries?

Loki, written by Robert Rodi and illlustrated by Esad Ribić from 2004. It's probably my favorite Loki story (partly due the gorgeous, Frank Frazetta-esque art).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#129340: Jun 20th 2021 at 11:39:38 AM

“Fine and dandy” feels like wayyyy too loose a reading considering Loki’s usurped reign turns out to be a disaster that ends up setting Hela free.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#129341: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:08:02 PM

Yeah, it was Played for Laughs, but that's more about Ragnarok's dark humor than actually condoning it.

People died because of Loki's actions. People both Loki and the audience cared about. Even if you discount Infinity War and offscreen deaths, it still got Odin killed which in turn released Hela.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#129342: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:17:59 PM

The rest of the movie was written and shot with Loki's turnaround and sacrifice being real, the ending was a last-minute addition without changing anything prior. I consider that a retcon, as it's adding to an otherwise finished story.

Was Hela escaping Loki's fault, or Odin's for not saying a damn thing about her until he was minutes away from death, even though he had broken free of Loki's spell ages ago and could have gone to an Avenger for help rather than wait for his sons to find him?

Prowler I'm here for our date, Rose! Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
I'm here for our date, Rose!
#129343: Jun 20th 2021 at 12:52:19 PM

The character was written and filmed as having gone mad on Earth until they decided he needed to leave the movies with some dignity, so that's another thing that probably fell victim to a hasty reworking.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#129344: Jun 20th 2021 at 3:54:04 PM

[up][up]Do you have proof the ending was not originally part of the story and was shot and added in after the fact? That's the kind of claim that you need to have proof for.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jun 20th 2021 at 3:54:55 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#129346: Jun 20th 2021 at 5:24:01 PM

It's an alternate ending, but not necessarily the original ending. They could have planned both endings at the same time and chose one over the other based on future plans for the franchise.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jun 20th 2021 at 5:24:23 AM

Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#129347: Jun 20th 2021 at 5:55:19 PM

Tom Hiddleston talked about the original plans in an interview and why they were changed. It's easily googleable, that and how test audience also wanted a happier ending for Thor and Jane.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#129348: Jun 20th 2021 at 6:16:46 PM

The making of Thor the Dark World was notoriously chaotic, with the film being essentially butchered in the post-production to make way for more Loki. I still wouldn't call those changes retcons, however, since that feels like abusing the term (by that logic, any creator changing their mind during the production process is doing a "retcon").

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#129349: Jun 20th 2021 at 6:33:44 PM

[up] Yeah, it makes a lot more sense to draw the line at publication before we start using the term retcon for any piece of media.

It's fine to prefer a version of the story that didn't make it to publication, but using the term retcon in this instance feels like an ultimately unnecessary attempt to elevate a subjective opinion into a statement of fact.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#129350: Jun 20th 2021 at 7:00:59 PM

I dont think is a retcon but it feel weird given Dark world kinda sorta "redeem" him.

Granted, this is not the first time it happen, look iron man: every time it look tony os fixing is issue the movies strike him back to being a mess. it happen in iron man 2 and iron man 3.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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