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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Putting aside the fact that you're saying that Loki, the picture of complexity, isn't actually complex, if he were "just an asshole", why was he Thor's loyal companion for years before the coronation? Why did he risk his life on Svartalfheim in a way that he definitely couldn't have survived? Why didn't he let Kurse kill Thor before attacking Kurse?
I am not saying that genocide is fine. Stop Death Eatering me. I am pointing out how Thor's and Odin's genocide gets excused and downplayed while Loki's is made to define his character and you get shouted down for even suggesting that maybe he could redeem himself like his family did.
Edited by Ayasugi on Jun 20th 2021 at 3:31:46 PM
The thing with Odin, it does not matter.
Odin's own crimes does not in any way absolve Loki of jackshit. Odin may bear some responsibility for being a crap parent but Loki's choices are his own.
By that logic Hela is completely blameless of her crimes just because Odin raised her to be that way. If we go down that fucking rabbit-hole then effectively no one deserves to be blamed for anything.
Its essentially the horseshit Naruto where all the atrocities caused by various psychopathic warlords was forgiven because "ancient evil God made me do it."
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Wait which miniseries?
Edited by slimcoder on Jun 20th 2021 at 12:32:51 PM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."![]()
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Interestingly, when a younger and more handsome version of Loki ends up Driven to Villainy due to the stuff I mentioned earlier, they figuratively and literally put on a mask that makes them look like the ugly Loki in the image you linked. As they put it, this was the only way anyone could accept them because they all wanted the evil Loki back.
Edited by M84 on Jun 21st 2021 at 3:32:16 AM
Disgusted, but not surprisedI’d say Odin is not blameless, since he helped perpetuate a good/evil narrative with the Jotunn with all Jotunn viewed as evil inhuman monsters, and Loki has internalized that view.
He might rage against being Odinson, but he will never view himself as Laufeyson.
But it’s undeniable that Loki does hold responsibility for his actions and has to pay for them, because it does not justify it regardless.
Same way Thor looked at Hela. He might be more respectful of his dad since he raised him, but he now understands his dad was a shitty person who he has to clean the mess up of, but that doesn’t mean it absolves Hela of all sin.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.I agree with that. I just don't see why it's assumed that he never will, ever, particularly when others like Thor and Odin were allowed the time to improve (and, in Odin's case, not even pay for his crimes). Same thing with Hela, too; Odin raised her to be a killer, and when he wanted to stop and she didn't, he wrote her off as irredeemable and sentenced her to an exile that all but guaranteed she'd never learn the value of preserving life. It all feels very Calvinistic; some characters are pre-ordained to be redeemed and thus given all the chances, and others are eternal sinners and not given anything more than the most perfunctory offer.
Edited by Ayasugi on Jun 20th 2021 at 3:42:08 PM
I don't think you can call something retconned if it is established in the same film it was introduced. If nothing else Ragnarok is the retcon here by making Loki's scheme to usurp Odin be fine and dandy. The Dark World shows it as clearly ominous.
Loki
, written by Robert Rodi and illlustrated by Esad Ribić from 2004. It's probably my favorite Loki story (partly due the gorgeous, Frank Frazetta-esque art).
Yeah, it was Played for Laughs, but that's more about Ragnarok's dark humor than actually condoning it.
People died because of Loki's actions. People both Loki and the audience cared about. Even if you discount Infinity War and offscreen deaths, it still got Odin killed which in turn released Hela.
Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.The rest of the movie was written and shot with Loki's turnaround and sacrifice being real, the ending was a last-minute addition without changing anything prior. I consider that a retcon, as it's adding to an otherwise finished story.
Was Hela escaping Loki's fault, or Odin's for not saying a damn thing about her until he was minutes away from death, even though he had broken free of Loki's spell ages ago and could have gone to an Avenger for help rather than wait for his sons to find him?
Tom Hiddleston talked about the original plans in an interview and why they were changed.
It's easily googleable, that and how test audience also wanted a happier ending for Thor and Jane.
The making of Thor the Dark World was notoriously chaotic, with the film being essentially butchered in the post-production to make way for more Loki. I still wouldn't call those changes retcons, however, since that feels like abusing the term (by that logic, any creator changing their mind during the production process is doing a "retcon").
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Yeah, it makes a lot more sense to draw the line at publication before we start using the term retcon for any piece of media.
It's fine to prefer a version of the story that didn't make it to publication, but using the term retcon in this instance feels like an ultimately unnecessary attempt to elevate a subjective opinion into a statement of fact.
I dont think is a retcon but it feel weird given Dark world kinda sorta "redeem" him.
Granted, this is not the first time it happen, look iron man: every time it look tony os fixing is issue the movies strike him back to being a mess. it happen in iron man 2 and iron man 3.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

The premise of Loki is basically that he's Thor pre-character development (a royal brat who thinks the world spins around him) but made worse (as I've made myself clear: Thor's and Loki's misdeeds are different by several orders of magnitude, no matter how much leather pants you put on Loki or death consumption on Thor) and favouring trickery rather than open battle.
I really actually wish they would have gone with the Loki from the 2004 miniseries from day one. That Loki is much more of a thorough fiend with a sympathetic side (more on the end of "I'm lashing out my own inadequacies on the world, blind to the fact Thor is my only true friend") and also much uglier, with the crooked teeth and sallow skin. I am 900% sure if MCU Loki looked like this
◊ rather than a dashing young lad we'd have a lot fewer debates about how genocide is fine if you had a stressful week.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."