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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
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And, well, the reason they were dependent on Asgard for protection was probably thanks to Odin conquering the Nine Realms and continuing to rule them as "protector". Loki-as-Odin going isolationist was the realms' chance for independence but with much less likelihood that the Defender of the Realms would be sent to put down their revolt like after the Bifrost was destroyed. Loki had selfish reasons, but he was incidentally correcting one of Odin's long-lasting injustices.
Edited by Ayasugi on Jun 19th 2021 at 2:14:50 PM
Ah my bad. It was one of the writers commenting on Odin in the Honest Trailers commentary
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At the same time, Asgard becoming the police state that “keeps the peace” meant the Nine Realms were dependent on them for anything.
Basically crashing your car and a shard of shrapnel gets jabbed into you.
The slow path is painful but removing it slowly ensures the damage is minimized.
The fast path is ripping out out and tearing your body apart for an instant fix that leaves you more of a mess than if you took the slow path.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 19th 2021 at 11:30:02 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.I mean, knowing Kenneth Branagh, I'm pretty sure he was making a joke with Odin deliberately going to sleep to avoid Loki. In the film proper they bring it up that Odin has been putting off Odinsleep for longer than usual and is pushing himself to his limit, so when he collapses during incredibly stressful time of his life, it's pretty clearly established.
@Ayasugi: Loki's character arc has always been "all his own doing". There have always been external factors (Thor's arrogance, Odin's decepcion, Thanos, e.t.c) but the choices have always been his and his alone, something always highlighted by Loki being offered dozens of chances to turn back on his ways and always doubling down (Avengers alone has like 6 moments of these where Thor or someone else parlays with Loki and he doubles down on what he's doing). There's just a tendency to infantilize him and take away his agency ("it was all Odin's fault", "it was all the mind stone") because people want him to the misunderstood pretty boy. If this pattern seems familiar, it's because it is: it's the exact same conundrum with Kylo Ren, down to the character deliberately refusing chances to turn back from points of no return to the infantilization ("it was all Luke's fault", "it was just Snoke").
Also this:
Is a pretty gross misrepresentation of events for a multitude of reasons. The most obvious being even Thor at the height of his hubris had 0 designs to use the Bifrost to wipe out the Jotunns. Thor's goal was a war to subjugate them (which is bad), Loki was complete wholesale extermination of the entire race. Thor makes this clear when he tells Odin his excursion to Jotunheim was to teach them to "fear him (Thor) as they once feared you (Odin)". His goal is subjugation, Loki's is extermination.
The other part that makes this parallel nonsensical is that Thor does all he did on the premise the Jotuns are attacking Asgard covertly, something he had no reason to doubt. Loki for his part is well aware they did not, because he engineered those attacks himself. In his case he's wiping them out solely because they are Jotunn on a Boomerang Bigot thing, because both Jotun attacks we see were caused and planned by him.
@fred:
I don't think it's the same, no, but it undeniably makes him at least a accessory to genocide considering he used to work for Thanos and deliberately let him run amok in the Dwarven realm without warning anyone. Not providing any help to the Dwarves is shitty, not even letting anyone know that they're being wiped out is heartless. He could have at least told Thor or the Avengers. Instead Loki opted to sit in his bed and eat grapes while a full-scale massacre of a entire race occurred under his watch and kept that info for himself.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."I mean from the start you can see Odin is consistently making mistakes like dangling a throne before both his sons instead of saying it will go to Thor. His response after going “We aren’t Gods blah blah” was to act as haughty and arrogant as one the moment a mortal was in his presence and to quickly embrace warmongering when his wife died. His bad habits still bleed through and influence how he interacts with his sons.
Loki didn’t know about Thanos running amok there considering who he replaced Heimdall with. Loki tried to to fill the void of his life with hedonism and the guy he got can’t even tell him when Thor returns in time. Trying to entrust him with monitoring the realms would backfire from day one
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 19th 2021 at 11:39:38 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.No, it wasn't. It was to kill them all. He just didn't have a plan besides get in a fight and then appeal to Odin to help him finish the job. He was talking about wanting to wipe them out since he was a child, and if he'd been a villain instead of the main hero, that would've been considered Enfant Terrible behavior.
So Loki's entirely at fault for everything he does, even when he's clearly not well in the head or being prodded into it, but the Frost Giants are blameless for taking the opportunities Loki gave them? Why does total personal responsibility only apply to Loki?
I'd bet that's authorial fiat so the heroes can be caught flat-footed, and if there's a Watsonian explanation for Loki not warning them, it's because he figured they wouldn't believe him and accuse him of making up a story to weasel out of blame. It makes no sense for him to just ignore Thanos attacking any of the Nine Realms, not even Watsonianly, since he should be afraid that Thanos will be coming for him and the Tesseract next. It just feels like lazy writing.
Edited by Ayasugi on Jun 19th 2021 at 2:44:59 PM
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Ehhh while equalizing what thor did to what loki did is to far, is not wrong that Thor move from blood knight douchebag who want to subjugate them, probably after killing a bunch of them and nearly start a war into a perfect hero in the spand of days and getting a new girlfriend while loki learns that odin kinda keeping around to use is a diplomatic bargain token.
And while loki is indeed infantilized, the movie does keep around he is a bad guy, meanwhile Odin was paternalized into this flawed but somewhat well meaning figure even when he was a warmonger imperalist who kept trap her own daughter, take laufey son and kept him in the dark and pretty much cover is own imperalism until thor and loki have to deal with it, and yet he got a very "go quietly into the good night" moment and them become this weirdly obi wan figure on thor visions, which is weird when give thor is damn hammer in the first place.
Edited by unknowing on Jun 19th 2021 at 2:40:20 PM
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Historically colonialism gets you coming and going
Withdrawing protection when a client state has been made dependent on it is still bad
Forever liveblogging the AvengersOdin made a tremendous amount of fuck-ups, which is undeniable. It's just people decided that Odin and his fuck-ups means everyone now gets a free pass. That is not how this works.
Spinning Loki basically letting worlds burn because of his cowardice as somehow Odin's fault, for example, is pretty wild.
@Ayasugi
Again, he spells it out to Odin that his goal is subjugation. If the filmmakers wanted to show Thor wanted to simply wipe them out they'd have done him suggesting they use the Bifrost as a doomsday device like Loki does. He just talks a big game.
Being "not well in the head" is a pitiful excuse when it's used to justify genocide (particularly when this "insanity plea" does not not fit Loki, he doesn't have paranoid schizophrenia or anything to cloud his judgement). Loki is the pampered son of a royal family with a loving mother. Many of us would kill for a fraction of those privileges, and yet many of us (all of us, I'd hope) have not decided to blow up a planet because of our lack of them.
As for the Frost Giants, I don't know how that relates to anything. You're saying we should wipe out an entire race because because of Laufey? Particularly since the film plays it coy if Laufey even knew about the initial attack at Odin's "prize room". When Thor confronts him about it Laufey just barks about Odin's place being full of traitors (and later when Loki chats with him, Laufey says "you showed us the way" but he's a monarch so that's also cryptic). It's entirely within the realm of possibility it was just two Jotuns acting rogue at first and Laufey only really kicks into high gear after Thor comes after him and Loki gives him the keys to the proverbial kingdom.
In either case this illustrates the basic dodge here where every time Loki's misdeeds are brought up, the bat is swung at other characters to absolve him.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Loki definitely fucked up in ruling, but he wasn’t intentionally letting Thanos run amok at least. He was just a shitty ruler throwing his hedonistic pity parties to fill the void of his existence and put a guy who wasn’t doing his 1 job to watch the realms
That said, Loki is definitely accountable for his actions…until the Sacred Timeline essentially said this is the only fate he can have, meaning that this shitty dumbass is trapped to do it even if he decides one day to not be a shitty person or not attempt subjugation of earth or genocide his own race!
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 20th 2021 at 12:08:11 PM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.The problem with Thor 1 is that Thor's story on Earth is boring and I'm not interested, while Loki's story on Asgard is hypothetically interesting but doesn't involve the main character so I'm not interested. Both halves of the plot have me going "boring, skip to the next scene" until the end of the movie.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jun 20th 2021 at 12:08:20 PM
"Odin made a tremendous amount of fuck-ups, which is undeniable. It's just people decided that Odin and his fuck-ups means everyone now gets a free pass. That is not how this works."
It is not, but is mostly because fhe filmaker were damn as hell to give him free pass, even when shitting on colonialism(which it was weird and bizarre), specially when his shitty parenthing create nearly three damn warmongers.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Or he didn't think of it, because he'd only just heard that it was even a possibility and he was still in glorious battle mode. If the filmmakers didn't want us to think that Thor wanted to wipe out the Frost Giants, why did they introduce him saying that he wanted to do that when he grew up?
Basically all of that could be said about Thor, and he was still given a chance at instant redemption and forgiveness and plenty of time to decompress in order to reflect on his mistakes, and he wasn't under any stress other than being annoyed that his coronation got delayed. Loki, meanwhile, had his whole identity undercut, then had the responsibility of being king put on him. Then after he realized he'd done the wrong thing to get what he wanted, he tried to kill himself, failed, and got lost in the void and then press-ganged into Thanos's army. The start of TDW is the first time he's had a calm moment since Thor's attack on Jotunheim. Who's to say that he wouldn't have undergone the same reflection as Thor and regretted his deeds, if he'd been given depowering and banishment like Thor instead of being locked up for life after being told he should have died?
Laufey didn't have to try to commit regicide while his overlord was helpless. He chose to when given the opportunity. He wasn't a helpless victim, he has as much of the blame for that as Loki. Loki trying to use that as justification to destroy Jotunheim doesn't mean they didn't commit serious crimes. But you're putting all of the blame for their actions on Loki, as if he was ordering them to attack Asgard and kill Odin.
Loki getting a pass despite all the shit he pulls is at least consistent with his portrayal in the comics.
Ironically, Loki ends up with the opposite problem when they decide to stop being a villain. Because it turned out that Loki's role as the villain was actually really vital to the metaphysical underpinnings of the Asgardians' existence and everyone wants Loki to be a villain again. So as a result everyone ends up giving Loki shit no matter what they do in part because they want to drive Loki into villainy.
Edited by M84 on Jun 21st 2021 at 3:18:20 AM
Disgusted, but not surprised![]()
Because he's just an asshole, or because his story stopped before he had the chance to turn himself around? Or, Loki (2021) spoilers, because every time he did try to become better, the TVA reset him?
Edited by Ayasugi on Jun 20th 2021 at 3:19:13 PM
Loki took after Odin the most, after all.
No surprise him, Hela, and Loki resemble each other the most
Thor over here being a hybrid between his mom AND his own character with his dads warmongering when he was a manchild.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 20th 2021 at 12:19:44 PM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.Because he’s an asshole. It’s not fucking complex. Some people are just shit. Sure they may not be all shit but there’s a lot of shit.
I mean I shit on Star-Lord but to his credit as he said he may be an asshole but he’s not entirely a dick, Loki though is mostly a dick.
It’s what ya got from a family of Viking Gods. Asgardians are warmongers and Odin and Hela just happened to be the greatest mongers who ever lived.
Edited by slimcoder on Jun 20th 2021 at 12:24:05 PM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

No the director actually did say he did it on purpose. To avoid a difficult conversation
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.