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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#129276: Jun 19th 2021 at 7:24:18 PM

I don't even think he was planning on taking the throne; he just wanted to demonstrate that Thor was unfit to be king. He was blindsided by them getting as far as they did on Jotunheim (he tipped off a guard to their antics and was mad that they weren't stopped earlier), Odin actually banishing Thor, and then Odin going into the Odinsleep and leaving him as king. He probably envisioned destroying Jotunheim as "finally killing the monsters for good" without a bloody war that could cost Asgardian lives, which would incidentally render his own Frost Giant blood meaningless (as they're no longer around) and prove that he's 100% loyal to Asgard.

[up][nja]

Edited by Ayasugi on Jun 19th 2021 at 10:25:12 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#129277: Jun 19th 2021 at 7:25:30 PM

Loki's plan from the star seemed to be:

  1. Cause mischief.
  2. There are no further steps.

Loki was messing with Thor's coronation and then baiting him into attacking the Jotuns for shits and giggles, because that's how Loki rolls. I doubt he knew in advance that Odin would exile Thor over it, and he definitely wasn't expecting to discover his secret Jotun heritage in the process.

He probably was secretly resentful that Thor was going to be made king over him, but I doubt he expected to achieve anything more than messing up Thor's big day and then tricking him into looking like a ponce. But then he found out he was biologically Jotun and his mind took that little nugget of resentment and transformed into a paranoid delusion of how he had been mistreated and manipulated by a family that could never truly love a Jotun child, and it was all downhill from there.

When. Y'know. There doesn't actually need to exist a racist conspiracy to explain why the older brother gets the throne. That's generally how succession works.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#129278: Jun 19th 2021 at 7:28:45 PM

I remenber there was a eliminate scene were loki is crown king of asgard?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#129279: Jun 19th 2021 at 7:36:34 PM

Yes, an alternate version of the Loki and Frigga at Odin's bedside scene. That ends with her giving him Gungnir and telling him to make her proud. TDW even called back to it with his first on-screen line, asking her if he's made her proud.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#129280: Jun 19th 2021 at 7:37:17 PM

I feel like Loki definitely was planning on becoming king. If Thor is unfit, who the Hell else is gonna inherit the throne? Loki's the only other heir. So his plan, to me, was pretty clearly to convince Odin he's the far superior heir to the throne. It's just his original plan was "rule out Thor of the succession, then convince Odin I'm a suitable choice" and that flew off the rails from the word go. The only question to me is if he did want to completely annihilate the Jotunheim before he knew his lineage.

Edited by Gaon on Jun 19th 2021 at 7:37:54 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#129281: Jun 19th 2021 at 7:40:00 PM

[up]I do think that it seemed like Loki was egging on Thor a little when he was just throwing a tantrum by flipping tables full of food. Or maybe I just misread that scene.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#129282: Jun 19th 2021 at 7:40:05 PM

If Thor doesn't become king, then Odin keeps the throne. He was probably planning to wait until he'd definitively proven to Odin that Thor would never be worthy while he himself was, or maybe even had a nugget of a hope that Thor would finally mature some ways down the line.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#129283: Jun 19th 2021 at 7:41:41 PM

I was just pointing out how odd it is that despite the first film going to some lenghts to say "don't overlook the Jotunn", the rest of the MCU entirely ignores them.

Interestingly, there’s precedent in Norse myth. The Jotuns in the old stories are very passive, more equated to trees than people. They have powerful tools, but they never use them, and are frequently robbed, slain, and their possessions and even their own bodies used by the Aesir to build.

Until Ragnarok, in which the Jotun are passive no longer and kill the Aesir in revenge. To the myths this is as shocking and sudden when NPCs suddenly attack the player. There’s a number of interpretations of Ragnarok, from it representing the reclamation of nature to it being the wrath of femininity over masculinity, and so on. Regardless, it’s unexpected for the Jotun beforehand to do anything but walk around and be killed for kicks.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 19th 2021 at 7:41:58 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#129284: Jun 19th 2021 at 7:55:02 PM

I recall hearing how Thor: Ragnarok was originally going to end with Loki taking the Tesseract and heading to Jotunheim. Then Infinity War would've picked up by showing Thanos tracking him down and killing Loki on Jotunheim, causing him to die alone.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Jun 19th 2021 at 10:55:47 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#129285: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:00:08 PM

Movie 1 Loki is in a weird place in comparison to the later versions, because it's before the whole "I was supposed to rule but everyone just denied me!" mentality really sets in. He doesn't really have an objective at first but to lash out at a situation he doesn't like - he clearly doesn't think Thor is a fit ruler, and clearly doesn't like the Frost Giants, but there's no intention there and half the things that happen outright seem to snowball out of his control.

At best, I'd say his plan at first might have been to discredit Thor's claim to the throne to have Odin reconsider him, but he mostly just seems to want to be a dick. Meanwhile, he spends most of the climax of the film in the throes of a mental breakdown.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#129286: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:01:09 PM

[up][up]Which it will tie with the threat the other made to loki bad them at first avenger movie that have loki fails he would be track to the end of the universe and be slain for is faliure.

Edited by unknowing on Jun 19th 2021 at 11:01:37 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#129287: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:17:57 PM

Loki's entire character arc in Thor 1 is essentially a prank (gone wrong)

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#129288: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:33:59 PM

As always, loki is the start and solution of all problemstongue

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#129289: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:41:15 PM

Thor 1 is the only one where Loki seems like a god of mischief instead of a constant backstabber like he is everywhere else except for the series itself.

The legend has returned.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#129290: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:46:38 PM

I've always found it hilarious that Thor knows absolutely nothing about what's happening for the entirety of the climax, and he doesn't find out either until afterwards.

He's constantly riding in a state of "what the hell is going on?" The Destroyer is rampaging trying to kill him. The Bifrost has been turned into a death laser. His father's alive, apparently. And Loki is absolutely losing his goddamn mind. When Loki's falling apart and going all "fight me fight me fight me" and Thor's just like "this is insane!" I feel that.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 19th 2021 at 8:47:28 AM

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#129291: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:49:33 PM

Loki starting shit up and having to fix them is just a thing for Loki. Here's a handy flowchart.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#129292: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:49:42 PM

I often get a little bit on that on ragnarok, that hela is like "this is my throne" and thor is like ".....sure, whatever, you are evil" specially by hoe little conected both are.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#129293: Jun 19th 2021 at 8:59:15 PM

Thor 1 is the only one where Loki seems like a god of mischief instead of a constant backstabber like he is everywhere else except for the series itself.

Also has precedent in the myths; Loki’s early tales had him more as Chaotic Neutral and then Christianized retellings evolved him into a Satanic Archetype.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#129294: Jun 19th 2021 at 9:57:10 PM

Contextualized from Thor 1 completely eroding Loki’s sense of self and ego, him being wildly out of character for Avengers kinda makes sense even if you don’t think it’s the mind stone doing it

Guy veered off into radicalism because after burning every bridge with your family and trying to do a genocide, where else is there to go but worse?

And then he gets the shit beat out of him and he kinda mellows out after being petty for a while

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#129295: Jun 19th 2021 at 10:03:54 PM

And don't forget who he spent time with just before invading Earth. I'd put high odds on his new Evils Of Free Will philosophy being drilled into him by Mr. Inevitable.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#129296: Jun 19th 2021 at 10:27:00 PM

In all sincerity, I always thought Loki's character arc was very simple from Thor to Avengers. It's a downward spiral to villainy, boilerplate Start of Darkness Protagonist Journey to Villain stuff. He starts off as more or less good and we see him unravel across the film as his scheme goes off the rails, he discovers his father's lies and he just goes to increasingly monstrous extents to justify his own existence. By the end of the film he has crossed the Despair Event Horizon and literally tries to kill himself. To his misfortune he survives, so he rebuilds himself, but now he's just a wreckling ball of (self-)hatred. The point he tried to wipe out Jotunheim was his point of no return.

It's just everybody went "no we liked him better when he was a misunderstood pretty boy" so basically every other movie tries to reset his character to the point it was about midway through Thor, so the point of no return became the point of returning at lightspeed. Thor the Dark World is indecisive about it, zig-zagging for its entire duration before landing on "Loki's definitely evil" with the ending, but then Ragnarok ignores it and is the most extreme at completely disregarding anything Loki's character did since Thor 1.

Infinity War is a curious one because Loki does get essentially a heroic death (though the surprisingly gruesome manner in which he dies has an element of karmic punishment and the Russos chuckling at their own brutality), but the same film also gives a Cerebus Retcon to Loki's reign as Odin by showing the Dwarves were wiped out by Thanos because Loki refused to help them (as Eitri puts it, "Where was Asgard!?"). Thus making Loki collect participations in genocide like gym badges in pokemon.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#129297: Jun 19th 2021 at 10:29:19 PM

He wasn’t ready to challenge the elite four

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#129298: Jun 19th 2021 at 10:32:19 PM

Not helped that Odins response to Lokis question is to intentionally undergo Odinsleep than deal with his sons existential breakdown.

S Tier parenting right there. Right up there with pretending your first child you radicalized as a war monger doesnt exist!

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#129299: Jun 19th 2021 at 10:33:49 PM

If they wanted his continued descent into villainy to be all his own doing, they shouldn't have shown him directed by Thanos and threatened by him, even besides him acting even more deranged and unstable than right before he tried to commit suicide. Trying to destroy Jotunheim being his point of no return would be hypocritical when Thor at the start of his movie would've done the same thing if he'd thought of it, and three days later he's a perfect hero.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#129300: Jun 19th 2021 at 11:04:59 PM

[up][up]It's the funniest scene in the movie and I like joking that he went into a coma to avoid an awkward conversation but I don't think he actually did it intentionally.

Then again, his Odinsleep thing doesn't appear again in the movies so...

but the same film also gives a Cerebus Retcon to Loki's reign as Odin by showing the Dwarves were wiped out by Thanos because Loki refused to help them (as Eitri puts it, "Where was Asgard!?"). Thus making Loki collect participations in genocide like gym badges in pokemon.

O.K, this might sound like a weird argument but I feel like it's a bit...inaccurate to conflate the ones he actually tried to do (was he trying to kill all humans on Earth since, well, wouldn't that leave him not much left to rule) with the Dwarves.

It's mostly because Jotunheim and Earth are ones he tried to actually commit while the Dwarves...seem to be mostly neglect or just not knowing about it, my memory is fuzzy on that point.

He didn't try to kill the Dwarves himself, like the other attempts, he just didn't go to help them. I suppose that is my point, a stickler it may be. They're both bad things, yes, but not the exact bad thing?

Edited by fredhot16 on Jun 19th 2021 at 11:19:41 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.

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