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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
For who? Loki doesn't give a shit about them. He may not be Asgardian born but he's Asgardian raised and that's what matters to him.
Heck, he tried to kill the Ice Giants in Thor in an attempt to prove how Asgardian he is. Loki Odinson, through and through.
Edited by fredhot16 on Jun 19th 2021 at 4:24:23 AM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.Loki being born a Frost Giant and treated as one once he goes off the rails despite being raised Asgardian only finding out the truth very recently should be something that's explored more. And following that the ethics of whatever spell Odin used to keep his Frost Giant physiology hidden as a comparison to gender-conforming surgery on intersex infants, especially if they're going to look into his gender identity.
> And following that the ethics of whatever spell Odin used to keep his Frost Giant physiology hidden as a comparison to gender-conforming surgery on intersex infants,
I was with you with the first part of your post,but the stuff I'm quoting here,No. Just... No
have a listen and have a link to my discord serverHonestly considering how I never see a Frost Giant form Loki his current appearance is his natural look probably as a result of not growing up in the frost realm and experiencing constant extreme cold and other harsh survival conditions.
Cause credit to Odin he did raise Loki as his own son and as a prince of Asgard while Laufey left the guy to die when he was born where he would have either froze, starve, or get eaten by another Frost Giant.
Edited by slimcoder on Jun 19th 2021 at 4:48:23 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."He likes looking like that because it's how he was raised. He also hasn't been shown to be a shapeshifter, just an illusionist, and he only varies from that appearance for a ploy or a joke. He's rather attached to an appearance and identity that was a lie and got revoked without the chance for appeal that Odin's actual son got, and I'd like to see that explored rather than just beat the "he's bad by nature and can only be good if forced into it" drum yet again.
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I don't think he really cares much.
I mean even when he worked with the Frost Giants its clear he regarded them with absolute contempt and ultimately everything he did was for Odin's sake not really giving a shit about the Frost Giants.
And really why would he? All of his interactions, all he knows shows the Frost Giants as nothing more than a horde of savage bloodthirsty monsters. Considering how Loki loves the finer things in life, of course he detest such an obscene species.
Edited by slimcoder on Jun 19th 2021 at 5:03:47 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."Plus his father Laufey abandoned him to die in the cold for being "weak". Why should he care?
In the comics. It's noted that loki is an experction as frost giants are usually pyschotic brutes even laufey is ashamed of him for using intelligence and trickery rather then savagery
Edited by miraculous on Jun 19th 2021 at 5:08:33 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
That. And in the theatrical cut, he only has Odin's account of how he found him. He has plenty of room to doubt that and wonder if he really was abandoned to die, or if his caretakers were all killed by Asgardians instead. Given how badly things turned out when raised Asgardian, doesn't it make sense for him to wonder if he might've had a happier life if he'd stayed with his people? Particularly in a setting where paths not taken because they're forcibly cut off is such a big thing.
@ Ayusagi The first point just reminds me of the oddities of Odin's plan for Loki. He's going to adopt one of the children of the ruling family of the Ice Giants, never tell them where they came from, and, eventually, make Loki the king of the Ice Giants to secure peace with them. And he kept his origins from him to "protect him from the truth".
It takes a heart that can be moved to compassion to adopt a child they found abandoned (in a way that has nothing to do with Odin's war, I'm sure). It also takes a heart capable of pragmatism to try to institute that sort of plan for him. And it takes a bizarre head to think that keeping the true origins from that very person you're making plans for will "protect him". From bloody what? He's having this overreaction because you didn't let him know until now and after that point, Odin just goes to sleep.
The second point...I do not know enough about the subject to debate it.
Edit: Lord Almighty, are we getting into genocide here, the thing that's been pretty thoroughly shown as A Very Bad Thing in that movie?
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.I think it's been made clear at this point that Odin wasn't exactly the wisest king. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that he was conquering realms with the help of Hela and leaving blood in their wake. I think Odin not thinking through how Asgardian society dehumanizes the Frost Giants is perfectly within his character.
I feel like Odin wanted to have his cake and keep it too with Loki. As his plan all along was to have Loki "unify the realms," I always figured his exact scheme was to have Loki approach the Frost Giants as Laufey's son and ascend to their throne as... not exactly a puppet ruler, but a ruler with Asgardian ethics and culture who brings the Giants more in line with Asgardian sensibilities (presumably this involves getting rid of Laufey somehow).
But to do that, he would need to actually tell Loki about this well in advance so he could actually follow through, but he didn't despite having literally thousands of years of Loki's life to do so - and certainly not teach him that Frost Giants were monsters and villains as a child like every other kid in Asgard. So I figure he got too caught up in having Loki as an actual son, even though in doing so he was screwing up his plans.
Meanwhile, Loki thinks he's being forgotten as a son, because Thor gets all this grooming to be king while gets nothing seeing as the only training he could get for his king-hood involves secrets Odin doesn't want to tell.
One of the oddest things about the first Thor are the Jotuns in general. The crux of the film is them, and even though most Frost Giants are antagonists, warring with them and/or genocide against them is unilaterally shown as a terrible thing, but both following films completely ignore Jotunheim (we don't even know who rules that realm with Laufey's death) and whenever Loki's misdeeds are brought up, people (both in and out of universe) always act like he sprung fully formed to attack NY and wholesale skip the fact Loki casually went full-steam ahead with open genocide against Jotunheim (and was partially doing so, given we cut back to Jotuns being pulverized by the Bifrost a couple of times).
It ironically makes Laufey even more of a retroactive Anti-Villain than Ragnarok made him: no one cares about the Jotuns.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Warring with the Frost Giants isn't shown as a bad thing, only warring with them for the wrong reasons. We're not given any reason to think that Odin was wrong for chasing them off Earth and continuing the slaughter back on Jotunheim or stealing the Casket of Ancient Winters as punishment. Thor as a kid talking about wanting to kill all the "monsters" is brushed off with a gentle admonition, and Odin excuses his later attempted regicide and renewed calls for genocide with "he's just a headstrong boy, no need to make a big deal out of this". He also only really gets mad and consequence-y when Thor starts insulting him personally.
I just like the idea of Loki thinking that maybe they were all wrong about Frost Giants and he should've tried using his heritage to change that... several war crimes too late.
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...O.K, will try to respond to all that in the morning because I have a movie to finish and I want to be coherent and thoughtful when I do.
Edited by fredhot16 on Jun 19th 2021 at 6:42:20 AM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.I don't know about that. The broad point lifted several times in the movie is the war is a terrible thing and should be avoided at all costs unless absolutely necessary (as it was in the past). As he puts it in that child-centric prologue: "A wise king never seeks out war."
His biggest failure seems to be that he established semi-competently that war is bad but he did little to curb the dehumanization of Frost Giants (which is why Loki's plan is essentially "I'm gonna sidestep the war by just wiping out their entire people at once").
Odin's problem in movie 1 is a recurring one that he is terrible at perceiving the extent of the faults of his children. He fails to truly grapple with Thor's arrogance until he has caused a international incident and he fails to realize Loki is a conniving manipulator angling at genocide. Him going to Laufey to say "Hey, this was the actions of just a dumb kid" until Thor blows up in his face is an example (although in that case he is very obviously trying to avoid a gruesome conflict from breaking out).
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Just a side note: was the genocide actually a part of Loki's plans from the start? Getting the throne was but I feel like killing all the Ice Giants wasn't a goal until the whole "I'm a Ice Giant" revelation and Odin's awkward-ass coma.
That's something I've never been too sure of. Loki's initial plan seems to have been to manipulate Thor into doing something stupid and losing the crown so he can be king in his place, though it seems like he was blindsided by A) Thor grabbing him along to go Jotun B) Odin exiling Thor C) the revelation he's actually Jotun.
So if you assume his original plan went off without a hitch, what would he do once he became King of Asgard? He was already running a False Flag Operation against Asgard (thus giving himself a hypothetical justification to wipe them out, should him have succeeded), so it's actually entirely possible Loki intended to wipe out Jotunheim from day one. In the film proper, Loki and Thor both dehumanize the Jotuns to a tee, the difference between them is simply that Thor more openly hates them (so he wants to fight them) and Loki seems more afraid of them (so he wants to get rid of them as efficiently as possible). You can see this highlighted in their child scene: Thor joyfully says he wants to smash the giants when he shows up, Loki fearfully asks if the Jotuns still live (the word "still" in "still live" means a lot here).
Oh no, I agree. I was just pointing out how odd it is that despite the first film going to some lenghts to say "don't overlook the Jotunn", the rest of the MCU entirely ignores them.
Edited by Gaon on Jun 19th 2021 at 7:17:46 AM
"All you Fascists bound to lose."I don't think Loki's plan was "immediate seizure of the throne", there's too many moving parts for that to have ever panned out, especially since, as has been made readily apparent, Loki is nowhere near as clever as he thinks he is.
The way Loki talks (admittedly to other Frost Giants who he has every reason to lie to), his initial plan was just to spoil Thor's "special day", and there really isn't much reason to believe that isn't true, albeit with the additional slightly longer-term goal of establishing himself as a more fitting heir to the throne. Starting a war/getting Thor exiled/stressing Odin into a coma seem more like the plan spiraling horribly out of control and his own stress at learning about what he really is prompting him to go along with it and make it even bigger.

Making Loki the last of the frost giants would be dramatic, no?
have a listen and have a link to my discord server