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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
So, this is a bit of a random question, but would Kaecilius or Dormammu be the proper Big Bad of Doctor Strange?
Like, Kaecilius is obviously The Heavy who does all of the work, and (more importantly) has more than five minutes of screentime. Dormammu on the other hand, while not only vastly more powerful and evil, is Kaecilius' explicit master; has an underlying/constant presence throughout the movie despite his lack of screentime, especially compared to Thanos in The Avengers (2012) or the Supreme Intelligence in Captain Marvel; and is ultimately the Final Boss, in a scene that makes him far more memorable than anything Kaecilius has to offer.
I was thinking Kaecilius, but after watching the movie again a few days ago I think I'm kind of leaning Dormammu. I don't know, just something I was thinking about. Also, I'm a bit OCD about villains - I don't know why either - and I'd appreciate help mending the dissonance. Not actually suffering from a disorder, just have a habit of mentally organizing things.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jun 3rd 2021 at 7:38:16 AM
The Big Bad is not the worst villain or the one the hero faces off with the most. It’s the villain who is responsible for the conflict in the story, who creates the problem the hero has to solve.
I'm perfectly aware. The reason I'm asking is because Kaecilius is, again, The Heavy directly responsible for the conflict, but Dormammu is ultimately the one responsible - and has enough of a presence, at least more than usual Greater Scope Villains, that I don't feel comfortable immediately brushing him away from consideration.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jun 3rd 2021 at 7:49:41 AM
In my experience most people very comfortably treat Dormammu as Doctor Strange's Big Bad, and I'd say it's almost entirely because he gets a super-memorable and super-memetic Final Boss fight ("Dormammu I've come to bargain"), one that overshadows everything bland-ass Kaecilius did up to and including the rewind-time Hong Kong fight that directly preceded said meme.
Captain Marvel's actually a good comparison, because the Great Intelligence is just as much a more-active-than-typical Greater-Scope Villain and yet I figure most people would cite Yon-Rogg as the Big Bad, between Jude Law getting used significantly better, the GI not being as notable, and Yon-Rogg getting the "Final Boss fight".
In the plot as given, Kaecilius would be the Big Bad, and Dormammu would be the Bigger Bad.
It's a little weird in their case, but the basic difference is that the whole movie is Kaecilius' plan, Kaecilius' actions, Kaecilius' ambitions. He's doing it on behalf of Dormammu, but he's the one setting it all up, and Dormammu's only involved in an overarching sense in that he's giving Kaecilius power, and then at the very end as a Final Boss.
It's kind of muddled because Kaecilius is such a blandly written character, though. Dormammu steals the end of the movie so much that it's easy to forget that he's really just sitting around waiting for Kaecilius to bring the Earth to him, rather than doing anything.
The best comparison I can think of offhand is if, say, the Guardians had had a brief tussle with Thanos at the end of Guardians 1, but the plot otherwise stayed the same. Ronan and Thanos had a similar relationship, and Thanos contributes about as much to the plot of Guardians 1 as Dormammu did to Dr. Strange.
Or better yet, one that doesn't require supposing: the Supreme Intelligence in Captain Marvel is the same kind of thing: doesn't really have a role in the story, but is responsible for all the bad stuff in an overarching sense, and also gets a nice emotional confrontation with the hero partway through.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 3rd 2021 at 10:18:58 AM
That's fair enough. They're currently listed as a (obviously played with) Big Bad Duumvirate: the K-Man does the work but Big D - uh, I mean, Dormammu - has, as previously mentioned, a bigger presence and is the Final Boss. Plus, as mentioned, there's never any explicit scene of Dormammu giving orders.
Like, with other Greater Scope Villains:
- The Avengers: Loki is alluded as to having a master every once in a while, he's very clearly in over his head, the Other keeps bullying him, and it's ultimately Thanos' army he's using. But, to the Avengers, it's "Loki's plan," it's "Loki's invasion." Thanos, of course, is only in The Stinger, and the Avengers never even meet the Other.
- Guardian of the Galaxy: Thanos has one scene where he roasts Ronan, then pops up again on Zoom when Ronan betrays him and tells him to shove it. He's referenced to as Ronan's boss, Gamora and Nebula certainly have... issues... with him, but for the most part the Guardians' enmity is with Mr. Blue-Man-Group, and they - again - never interact with Thanos.
- Captain Marvel: The Supreme Intelligence has about two scenes, and is plainly established as the God-Emperor of the Kree. Despite this, Yon-Rogg essentially serves as the "face" of the generally bland and generic Kree forces, especially due to his personal relationship with Carol, and outside of its appearances the Supreme Intelligence only really gets a few offhand remarks acknowledging its existence.
- The Falcon and the Winter Soldier: Sharon plays a major part and the Power Broker is mentioned frequently, but she actively helps Sam and Bucky, and - besides the kerfuffle in Madripoor - doesn't seem all that interested in actively opposing them. Plus, the actively antagonistic Big Bad she empowered betrayed her before the start of the series.
Rewatching the movie, however, the moment is starts - by which I mean the first half's obligatory origin story/training/basic mechanics exposition is over, so like halfway through - they start bringing up and dreading Dormammu. "Dormammu is totes evil," "We have to stop Dormammu!", "Why do you serve Dormammu, he's an ass!", "Shut up, Dormammu's awesome, you're an ass!"
If just feels starkly different from other Greater Scope Villains... but, like many things, I'm probably just overthinking it.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jun 4th 2021 at 5:12:15 AM
Some official art from doctor strange:MOM was leaked by crew members : https://mobile.twitter.com/Adam_Khan100/status/1400814596378800134

Given who's voicing him, I would not think it impossible that said black Watcher is Uatu himself.
Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Jun 3rd 2021 at 3:23:12 AM