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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#127976: May 10th 2021 at 4:49:24 AM

Malekith is basically in the comics the Viler New Villain to Loki. All of his intelligence and hilarity without any of his morals or sympathetic traits leading To a far more evil and vicious character.

Edited by miraculous on May 10th 2021 at 4:50:40 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#127977: May 10th 2021 at 5:39:16 AM

The worst thing about Killian is that he's not even an actual character in the comics; he dies before the Extremis storyline even begins. That's like having a Harry Potter movie where Voldemort turns out to be fake, and then the real Big Bad is Fabian Prewett. Don't know who he is? Exactly.

Edited by lbssb on May 10th 2021 at 5:41:50 AM

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Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#127978: May 10th 2021 at 6:08:06 AM

Yeah. Like I said the twist might have worked if Killian had any memorability to him at all.

What is the general opinion Vanko by the way? I am kind of curious.

Edited by Bullman on May 10th 2021 at 8:08:25 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#127979: May 10th 2021 at 6:14:47 AM

He’s honestly the most interesting of the Iron Man villains, and that’s just because he’s inherently more stylish than Nerdy Human Torch and Swole Bald Iron Man Clone.

The legend has returned.
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#127980: May 10th 2021 at 6:15:54 AM

Best villain, fight me. Dude took on a guy with a flying suit that shoots lasers with whips, and still came pretty close to winning.

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#127981: May 10th 2021 at 6:24:46 AM

I really like Vanko! I don't know what the general opinion of him is, but I thought he was cool and very memorable, and I liked his Whiplash suit!

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#127982: May 10th 2021 at 6:27:43 AM

I'm fairly certain the narrative is meant to be allegorical to the War on Terror on some level, you don't make a movie about how Big Oil TM is using a middle eastern terrorism fears to run the country. The movie includes lines such as "I'll own the War on Terror!" (that's a direct quote) as Killian's executing this masterplan to have both Ellis and The Mandarin at his back and call. That line and those stakes only make sense if you take the film's allegory at face-value (i.e there's a chance Killian will, indeed, own the war on terror). It's much like Black Panther, Thor Ragnarok and Winter Soldier in its use of over-the-top fiction to address real world issues (it just botches them entirely unlike the other three). Saying the allegory for Bin Laden isn't an allegory ecause the film acknowledges the existence of Bin Laden briefly is like saying Winter Soldier's allegory isn't an allegory because the movie acknowledges the CIA (the obvious allegory source for SHIELD) exists outside of SHIELD.

Yes, and my point is that comes AFTER it turns out his Mandarin is a fake. Prior to that line there was no mention of Bin Laden or Gaddafi in the MCU, to the point that people were wondering if they even existed in the films' setting.

I wanna make it clear I'm only focusing on this point because it's the one I disagree with. And we're going to wind up eventually having to agree to disagree but I really do not think it is even remotely this complicated. And ironically when Gaon calls it "a dumber movie than people think" I think he's giving it more credit than it ever had.

I really do not think anyone at any point took the "Mandarin" as the MCU trying to Adenoid Hynkel their own version of Osama Bin Laden. Not anyone who made the movie and not anyone in the general audience watching it. The MCU has operated firmly on Like Reality, Unless Noted and few people are going to think "Bin Laden doesn't exist in the MCU, this is MCU Bin Laden" because quite frankly the very thought is too outrageously offensive for the average joe especially at the time to unknowingly make that leap. I'm pretty sure even the dumbass American general audience knew back then that Bin Laden wasn't the literal CEO of Middle Eastern Terrorism, in part because by the time the movie came out Bin Laden and Gaddafi were long dead. And speaking of, the Gaddafi comparison doesn't work nearly as well since at no point is the "Mandarin" or "Ten Rings" ever depicted as part of some Qurac Countrystan, and it's telling that in this supposed allegory the Gaddafi comparison is simultaneously irrelevant and yet still impacted.

The fake Mandarin is set up to be a generic-brand leader of a generic-brand Middle Eastern terrorist cell only for it to be revealed that he's a product of a Corporate Conspiracy. This isn't a failed allegory, this is a villain so stereotypical that it's lampshaded as in-universe deliberate. It can't even be taken as a failed allegory because the elements just straight-up are not there. The first Iron Man isn't an intended allegory either but you can clearly gleam something from the details, from the Ten Rings' use of Stark weaponry to their secret close relationship with Stane. Iron Man 3 gives nothing to work with: it is so focused on Tony's PTSD and this Create Your Own Villain motif that the Mandarin comes off like an Outside-Context Problem right up until the twist happens, and the supposed connection we do get between the Ten Rings and AIM is revealed to be complete bullshit once the twist happens.

Edited by Watchtower on May 10th 2021 at 9:29:59 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#127983: May 10th 2021 at 6:48:53 AM

Yeah, while he could've used a bit more screentime, Vanko is definitely the best developed and most entertaining of the MCU Iron Man villains.

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FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#127984: May 10th 2021 at 6:55:36 AM

My only problem with Vanko is, I still find it silly that he was totally unarmored in his attack at the race track. I know it's europe so guns aren't as common, but at such a big event surely there would be some armed security. If they did the usual Five Rounds Rapid, he'd have been toast.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#127985: May 10th 2021 at 6:56:44 AM

In Soviet Russia, body armor is for pansies tongue

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#127986: May 10th 2021 at 6:56:51 AM

I really like Vanko, too bad the story did him dirty. I really want him to survive and come back.

In fact, I like both Vanko and Justin Hammer. These two are great villains, fight me.

Hammer is honestly one of the funniest MCU villains.

Edited by Nightwire on May 10th 2021 at 6:57:35 AM

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#127987: May 10th 2021 at 7:04:50 AM

I genuinely don't remember what I thought about Justin Hammer when watching or rewatching Iron Man 2. Hmmm.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#127988: May 10th 2021 at 8:34:41 AM

Yeah, Hammer was much more fun than Aldrich as well.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#127989: May 10th 2021 at 8:35:07 AM

I like that almost all of us can just collectively agree that no matter how bad, boring, or wasted any one given villain may be, none of them even compare to the complete and utter disaster that is Malekith. Killain is boring but at least his powerset is fun. Kaecillius was a waste of Mikkelsen but at least he had a few poignant scenes. Ronan the Accuser was a flat character but at least he fit the story well and hammed it up. Cross was just a Stane clone but it was fun watching him devolve to a screaming mess.

Meanwhile the Keebler elf has nothing. He has no personality, is totally divorced from his comic book self, his motives suck ass, he's a waste of a good actor, none of his scenes are memorable, the fight against him somehow manages to be boring despite taking place across multiple realms, he accomplishes nothing of note other than killing friggin' Frigga. Every single issue any other villain in the MCU has, Malekith has them worse, and all at the same time.

About the only thing I can say about him is that it's funny he technically got killed by Dr. Selvig of all people.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on May 10th 2021 at 11:36:12 AM

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jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#127990: May 10th 2021 at 8:36:06 AM

Vanko's attack at the racetrack seemed to benefit a lot from plot contrivance. He turns up with just the flails and even a drunk Tony should just suit up and knock him head over arse with a repulsor from a distance.

That Vanko ever made that much of a fight of it was purely because DRAMA.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#127991: May 10th 2021 at 9:30:03 AM

I feel like Vanko would have worked better if his father had a more legitimate drama to it. In the film proper it seems like Ivan's revenge is completely misplaced. They explicitly bring up the beef between Howard and Anton Vanko but make clear that Howard was in the right and Anton was just a traitor to the US. If the film was actually about Tony reckoning with Howard's sins and Ivan being a monster of his own making (and by the allegories the IM franchise deals with, a monster born out of the ruthless nature of US capitalism and the Cold War), we'd have something with a lot more substance.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#127992: May 10th 2021 at 9:30:37 AM

His appearance is what kills it for me.

Like I honestly would be less harsh on him if he had like a super-suit or monster form. He's just a normal guy and that is horrendously boring.

That might be a big YMMV for why I received Killian better than others did.

I'm not a big fan of the super costumes. I prefer when characters dress in ways that you could reasonably conceive of people dressing. Part of the reason I always liked Iron Man was the fact that his "costume" has a function. He wears a robot suit because the robot suit is his powerset.

"Why is the character wearing that?" is a question that superheroes often dance around. In the comics, the answer is, "Because superheroes wear flashy costumes, obviously." In the Marvel Universe, this is often literally the answer. A character gets powers and they're immediately like, "Oh, this means I should be a superhero. And that means I should get a flashy costume because superheroes always have to have flashy costumes."

Superhero = Flashy Costume isn't just creative logic; it's become the in-universe explanation as well. It's just taken as a given by the characters themselves, both the heroes and the villains, that you can't use your superpowers unless you're wearing neon green spandex. And that's weird?

The MCU has done a pretty good job of justifying the way their characters look. The comic appearances are woven into realistic clothing choices, resulting in less of a costumed appearance and more of an expressive but practical look. I think Spider-Man is the only MCU superhero wearing a full-on costume.

I like these grounded-yet-expressive appearances because they mesh better with my suspension of disbelief. The circular kind of tropes like "Superheroes do this because this is what superheroes do" tend to grate me. So I never even noticed that there was anything wrong with the way Killian looks. His business suit is snappy and when he means business, he takes it off to reveal a muscular bare chest with cool tattoos. That worked just fine for me. Like, as an action movie villain, that's par for the course.

But now that you've brought it up, I can see where fans of the wild and crazy costuming of a superhero universe might be disappointed.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 10th 2021 at 9:31:36 AM

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#127993: May 10th 2021 at 9:31:38 AM

Is it weird that while I do agree Iron Man 2 has its faults, I don't think "Vanko doesn't have a legitimate reason to hate the Starks" is one of them?

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#127994: May 10th 2021 at 9:42:20 AM

Eh, like I said, I tend to prefer when the IM movies (and movies in general) engage more properly with their allegory. To me (but evidently not to everyone) the IM movies are very obviously engaging with the US military-industrial complex in varied ways. First film is about the war profiteering business proper, second movie has some "leftovers of the cold war" subtext, and third is about BIG OIL running the War on Terror. Second film is the one skating more on ice on that allegory (for the more I think the IM 3 allegory is shit, it is clear-cut to me).

I'd have enjoyed more if they engaged more with the sins of the Cold War through Vanko, particularly since he gets a fairly tragic introductory scene watching his father die and crying for him. I'd have liked to see that tidbit kept up through the film more.

A part of me also finds weird, granted, that Howard Stark is basically extremely vindicated as a pure heroic boi when he's Howard Hughes redux, and Hughes was a monster. Could be nice to add some more flaws to Howard.

As for Killian: There's more to an appearance and a costume than looking cool. There's mythology and symbology in neon spandex, their looks tell the story of who they are (like in pro wrestling, check out Roland Barthes's text on Wrestling in his book Mythologies for some long-winded elaboration on this). Killian, as a character, is already nothing like The Mandarin (as I've pointed out he's more Ezekiel Stane 2.0), but he could have at least borrowed his looks. Fake Mandarin for one actually has a more interesting appearance going on (with him wearing the mismatching elements of a han chinese-esque cloak but western military jackboots and a shirt, plus shades).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#127995: May 10th 2021 at 10:09:59 AM

Don't forget that in wasting Malekith, they also wasted Kurse (who iirc in the comics is a loyal servant to Malekith until he realizes Malekith doesn't have his people's best interest at heart, at which point he sacrifices himself to stop him), which is a shame because that would've made for a fantastic subplot that might have actually fixed most of what people hated about that movie.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#127996: May 10th 2021 at 10:12:10 AM

Regardless of whether Anton Vanko was actually guilty, Howard having him deported back to Russia was still an exceptionally cruel thing to do.

VengefulBale Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight from Nowhere Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight
#127997: May 10th 2021 at 10:21:52 AM

[up] Yep. In fact, a lot of Tony's problems can be dialed back up to his father being rather... Shitty as a person

Prettiest Meta Knight Gijinka, ngl
Prowler I'm here for our date, Rose! Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
I'm here for our date, Rose!
#127998: May 10th 2021 at 10:29:19 AM

Until the tugging-at-the-heartstrings home movie, I thought they were gonna run with "Howard Stark was kind of a piece of shit".

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#127999: May 10th 2021 at 10:50:28 AM

Vanko was misused in my opinion. His point that he just had to “make God bleed” gets abruptly dropped in the second half of the film and Vanko becomes fixated on killing Tony beyond reason. So that the movie can wrap up in the next hour, he foolishly has all the Hammer Drones turn on him giving Tony a convenient excuse to destroy them all and keep his reputation. Same with the needless reveal that Howard Stark was right along to eject Vanko Sr, which is irrelevant to Vanko Jr already being wrong to attack Tony.

Iron Man 2 should’ve been more like Armor Wars with Vanko in a Hannibal Lecter role. Perhaps the film thus ends with Tony in a fugitive state after having sacrificed his reputation to stop the other armors, going on the run until SHIELD comes calling for the Avengers.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#128000: May 10th 2021 at 10:52:32 AM

Well, we're going to be getting an Armor Wars show starring Rhodey.


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