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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
The worst thing about Killian is that he's not even an actual character in the comics; he dies before the Extremis storyline even begins. That's like having a Harry Potter movie where Voldemort turns out to be fake, and then the real Big Bad is Fabian Prewett. Don't know who he is? Exactly.
Edited by lbssb on May 10th 2021 at 5:41:50 AM
Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks MarathonYeah. Like I said the twist might have worked if Killian had any memorability to him at all.
What is the general opinion Vanko by the way? I am kind of curious.
Edited by Bullman on May 10th 2021 at 8:08:25 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadI wanna make it clear I'm only focusing on this point because it's the one I disagree with. And we're going to wind up eventually having to agree to disagree but I really do not think it is even remotely this complicated. And ironically when Gaon calls it "a dumber movie than people think" I think he's giving it more credit than it ever had.
I really do not think anyone at any point took the "Mandarin" as the MCU trying to Adenoid Hynkel their own version of Osama Bin Laden. Not anyone who made the movie and not anyone in the general audience watching it. The MCU has operated firmly on Like Reality, Unless Noted and few people are going to think "Bin Laden doesn't exist in the MCU, this is MCU Bin Laden" because quite frankly the very thought is too outrageously offensive for the average joe especially at the time to unknowingly make that leap. I'm pretty sure even the dumbass American general audience knew back then that Bin Laden wasn't the literal CEO of Middle Eastern Terrorism, in part because by the time the movie came out Bin Laden and Gaddafi were long dead. And speaking of, the Gaddafi comparison doesn't work nearly as well since at no point is the "Mandarin" or "Ten Rings" ever depicted as part of some Qurac Countrystan, and it's telling that in this supposed allegory the Gaddafi comparison is simultaneously irrelevant and yet still impacted.
The fake Mandarin is set up to be a generic-brand leader of a generic-brand Middle Eastern terrorist cell only for it to be revealed that he's a product of a Corporate Conspiracy. This isn't a failed allegory, this is a villain so stereotypical that it's lampshaded as in-universe deliberate. It can't even be taken as a failed allegory because the elements just straight-up are not there. The first Iron Man isn't an intended allegory either but you can clearly gleam something from the details, from the Ten Rings' use of Stark weaponry to their secret close relationship with Stane. Iron Man 3 gives nothing to work with: it is so focused on Tony's PTSD and this Create Your Own Villain motif that the Mandarin comes off like an Outside-Context Problem right up until the twist happens, and the supposed connection we do get between the Ten Rings and AIM is revealed to be complete bullshit once the twist happens.
Edited by Watchtower on May 10th 2021 at 9:29:59 AM
My only problem with Vanko is, I still find it silly that he was totally unarmored in his attack at the race track. I know it's europe so guns aren't as common, but at such a big event surely there would be some armed security. If they did the usual Five Rounds Rapid, he'd have been toast.
I like that almost all of us can just collectively agree that no matter how bad, boring, or wasted any one given villain may be, none of them even compare to the complete and utter disaster that is Malekith. Killain is boring but at least his powerset is fun. Kaecillius was a waste of Mikkelsen but at least he had a few poignant scenes. Ronan the Accuser was a flat character but at least he fit the story well and hammed it up. Cross was just a Stane clone but it was fun watching him devolve to a screaming mess.
Meanwhile the Keebler elf has nothing. He has no personality, is totally divorced from his comic book self, his motives suck ass, he's a waste of a good actor, none of his scenes are memorable, the fight against him somehow manages to be boring despite taking place across multiple realms, he accomplishes nothing of note other than killing friggin' Frigga. Every single issue any other villain in the MCU has, Malekith has them worse, and all at the same time.
About the only thing I can say about him is that it's funny he technically got killed by Dr. Selvig of all people.
Edited by Anomalocaris20 on May 10th 2021 at 11:36:12 AM
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!Vanko's attack at the racetrack seemed to benefit a lot from plot contrivance. He turns up with just the flails and even a drunk Tony should just suit up and knock him head over arse with a repulsor from a distance.
That Vanko ever made that much of a fight of it was purely because DRAMA.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."I feel like Vanko would have worked better if his father had a more legitimate drama to it. In the film proper it seems like Ivan's revenge is completely misplaced. They explicitly bring up the beef between Howard and Anton Vanko but make clear that Howard was in the right and Anton was just a traitor to the US. If the film was actually about Tony reckoning with Howard's sins and Ivan being a monster of his own making (and by the allegories the IM franchise deals with, a monster born out of the ruthless nature of US capitalism and the Cold War), we'd have something with a lot more substance.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Like I honestly would be less harsh on him if he had like a super-suit or monster form. He's just a normal guy and that is horrendously boring.
That might be a big YMMV for why I received Killian better than others did.
I'm not a big fan of the super costumes. I prefer when characters dress in ways that you could reasonably conceive of people dressing. Part of the reason I always liked Iron Man was the fact that his "costume" has a function. He wears a robot suit because the robot suit is his powerset.
"Why is the character wearing that?" is a question that superheroes often dance around. In the comics, the answer is, "Because superheroes wear flashy costumes, obviously." In the Marvel Universe, this is often literally the answer. A character gets powers and they're immediately like, "Oh, this means I should be a superhero. And that means I should get a flashy costume because superheroes always have to have flashy costumes."
Superhero = Flashy Costume isn't just creative logic; it's become the in-universe explanation as well. It's just taken as a given by the characters themselves, both the heroes and the villains, that you can't use your superpowers unless you're wearing neon green spandex. And that's weird?
The MCU has done a pretty good job of justifying the way their characters look. The comic appearances are woven into realistic clothing choices, resulting in less of a costumed appearance and more of an expressive but practical look. I think Spider-Man is the only MCU superhero wearing a full-on costume.
I like these grounded-yet-expressive appearances because they mesh better with my suspension of disbelief. The circular kind of tropes like "Superheroes do this because this is what superheroes do" tend to grate me. So I never even noticed that there was anything wrong with the way Killian looks. His business suit is snappy and when he means business, he takes it off to reveal a muscular bare chest with cool tattoos. That worked just fine for me. Like, as an action movie villain, that's par for the course.
But now that you've brought it up, I can see where fans of the wild and crazy costuming of a superhero universe might be disappointed.
Edited by TobiasDrake on May 10th 2021 at 9:31:36 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Eh, like I said, I tend to prefer when the IM movies (and movies in general) engage more properly with their allegory. To me (but evidently not to everyone) the IM movies are very obviously engaging with the US military-industrial complex in varied ways. First film is about the war profiteering business proper, second movie has some "leftovers of the cold war" subtext, and third is about BIG OIL running the War on Terror. Second film is the one skating more on ice on that allegory (for the more I think the IM 3 allegory is shit, it is clear-cut to me).
I'd have enjoyed more if they engaged more with the sins of the Cold War through Vanko, particularly since he gets a fairly tragic introductory scene watching his father die and crying for him. I'd have liked to see that tidbit kept up through the film more.
A part of me also finds weird, granted, that Howard Stark is basically extremely vindicated as a pure heroic boi when he's Howard Hughes redux, and Hughes was a monster. Could be nice to add some more flaws to Howard.
As for Killian: There's more to an appearance and a costume than looking cool. There's mythology and symbology in neon spandex, their looks tell the story of who they are (like in pro wrestling, check out Roland Barthes's text on Wrestling in his book Mythologies for some long-winded elaboration on this). Killian, as a character, is already nothing like The Mandarin (as I've pointed out he's more Ezekiel Stane 2.0), but he could have at least borrowed his looks. Fake Mandarin for one actually has a more interesting appearance going on (with him wearing the mismatching elements of a han chinese-esque cloak but western military jackboots and a shirt, plus shades).
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Don't forget that in wasting Malekith, they also wasted Kurse (who iirc in the comics is a loyal servant to Malekith until he realizes Malekith doesn't have his people's best interest at heart, at which point he sacrifices himself to stop him), which is a shame because that would've made for a fantastic subplot that might have actually fixed most of what people hated about that movie.
Yep. In fact, a lot of Tony's problems can be dialed back up to his father being rather... Shitty as a person
Vanko was misused in my opinion. His point that he just had to “make God bleed” gets abruptly dropped in the second half of the film and Vanko becomes fixated on killing Tony beyond reason. So that the movie can wrap up in the next hour, he foolishly has all the Hammer Drones turn on him giving Tony a convenient excuse to destroy them all and keep his reputation. Same with the needless reveal that Howard Stark was right along to eject Vanko Sr, which is irrelevant to Vanko Jr already being wrong to attack Tony.
Iron Man 2 should’ve been more like Armor Wars with Vanko in a Hannibal Lecter role. Perhaps the film thus ends with Tony in a fugitive state after having sacrificed his reputation to stop the other armors, going on the run until SHIELD comes calling for the Avengers.

Malekith is basically in the comics the Viler New Villain to Loki. All of his intelligence and hilarity without any of his morals or sympathetic traits leading To a far more evil and vicious character.
Edited by miraculous on May 10th 2021 at 4:50:40 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."