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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#125801: Mar 6th 2021 at 11:46:59 PM

There's two "main" routes to introducing mutants: a mass-empowering event that introduces a massive world wide population or the "actually theres a small group that were here all along hiding."

If the former, the chance to use the Blip has pretty much gone, but we do have the Eternals who could feasibly cause it. If the latter then arguably Thanos' attack could be what convinced MCU!Xavier that a team of mutant heroes would be a good idea.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#125802: Mar 7th 2021 at 12:20:02 AM

"There's been a small group around the whole time" is how the mutants have always worked in almost every continuity.

You'll have Logan, who fought in World War II, and Apocalypse, who's from Ancient Egypt, and a few others from various other points in history, but this isn't an Alternate History where mutants have always been something human civilization has known about. Generally, X-Men stories begin a relatively short time after the general public has learned that mutants are a thing (or, in some cases, shortly before that happens). This is sometimes implied and sometimes explicitly stated to be because there are a lot more mutants being born and/or activating their powers now (in the early comics and the movie First Class, radiation from nuclear weapons tests is credited with the rise in mutant numbers).

So there's no reason the MCU can't do the same thing. At any given point in history, there might be a dozen or so mutants in the world, few enough that they either fly under the radar or fade into legend; between the original Ant-Man and Wasp, the Sorcerers Supreme, and various alien visitors, there's plenty of precedent for that sort of thing in the MCU. Now, maybe because of the Blip, maybe because of changes in the environment, or maybe because comic book evolution is weird like that, there's a mutant baby boom, with hundreds of mutants coming into their powers every year, and the public can't help but notice.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#125804: Mar 7th 2021 at 2:40:27 AM

The reason this derailed the Wanda Vision thread was, of course, the continued speculation that she would do a reverse House Of M.

Is 10k too many to have flown under the radar? Too little even?

eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#125805: Mar 7th 2021 at 4:01:58 AM

Even 1.000.000 is little, if they distribute them around the world, and it wouldn't be hard to sell that they passed under the radar because, as I said before, I can buy people not wanting to be heroes, and the fact that many mutants end with non-consecuential powers, or hard to figure it out it's actually a power (Domino's super lucky, healing factor, etc)

djoki996 Since: Dec, 2018
#125806: Mar 7th 2021 at 4:08:36 AM

[up] Yeah, but also, many mutants who don't have any useful powers or don't have powers at all also have some deformities.

eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#125807: Mar 7th 2021 at 4:13:35 AM

Sure, but not only let's begin with baby steps when introducing the mutants, that could be explained with the freak shows in circus or myths from the past.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#125808: Mar 8th 2021 at 6:11:22 AM

It's been a while since I watched Civil War or Infinity War but I have to ask: why do Wanda and Vision love each other?

I remember a single scene of them really being "together" and it was when Vision was acting awkward, being ordered by Tony to keep Wanda distracted.

Wandavision and Infinity War of course are long after their relationship has established, but it feels like most of it started off-screen. Do they relate? Is Wanda into metal men? Does Vision have some specific interest in common?

I've never grasped where their relationship starts or what they find attractive about one another.

I guess the same could be asked about Ultimate Wanda and Peter but at least I'd believe there's hormonal reasons for that, disturbing as that may be. Vision... wouldn't have those? So it's an intellectual, maybe spiritual thing? I want to believe Wanda has some kind of isolation complex and Vision finds her soul/redemption beautiful or some junk like that.

Cap and Sharon are similarly confusing but, again, hormones and... family genetics.

Edited by FOFD on Mar 8th 2021 at 6:15:00 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#125809: Mar 8th 2021 at 6:21:34 AM

Civil War does have some nice scenes of Wanda and Vision getting to know each other better and bonding over their shared origins, without getting super in your face about it being Ship Tease the way they were with the awkward flirting between Cap and Sharon. You can see a reasonable trajectory for them eventually falling in love over the two-year timeskip based off of those scenes.

But yeah, I agree that the development of their relationship does rely on a lot of telling over showing, and on audience being charitable to the lack of onscreen development due to banking on expectations with the two having been an established couple in the comics.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 8th 2021 at 9:25:19 AM

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#125810: Mar 8th 2021 at 6:42:49 AM

There is a scene in Wandavision where in a flashback we see Vision talking with Wanda right after Pietro's death, and it is clear she appreciates his compassion note 

Other than that, I don't think I would have understood what was going on if I had not known beforehand that the comic book characters were supposed to fall in love with one another. Vision is definitely troubled by Wanda in Civil War, but we have no clue on how she feels at this point (thought the above flashback gives some insight about this, but it was filmed after this anyway).

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#125811: Mar 8th 2021 at 7:20:50 AM

In Civil War it seems the emotional cornerstone is a commonality connection over both of them being creations of the Mind Stone who don't quite grasp the power they wield. The "Paprika" scene has a bit on this, where Vision illustrates that he doesn't understand the power that fuels him but he doesn't fear it, but seeks to understand it (drawing a obvious parallel between him and Wanda). There's also, conversely, a opposites attract bit (Wanda being very emotional while Wanda is calmer and more cool-headed).

Overall they pull the same trick as Tony-Pepper, which is a relationship suggested on-screen by chemistry but overall only takes giant leaps off-screen.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#125812: Mar 8th 2021 at 7:37:34 AM

She has a bit of a fascination with him even when he’s not yet been “born” as well

And possibly the reciprocal is something Ultron put in because he seemed to have something for Wanda too

Mutual interest builds on off screen interactions and bam, making out

The bits in Civil War imply a familiar relationship. Vision is too used to floating into her room

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#125813: Mar 8th 2021 at 7:39:32 AM

[up][up]Thinking about it, it is also how they went with Bruce and Natasha (whatever one may think about this particular relationship).

Edited by C105 on Mar 8th 2021 at 4:39:58 PM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#125814: Mar 8th 2021 at 8:03:25 AM

I don't remember seeing the seeds for Bruce/Natasha planted in preceding movies the way the other couples got. Even Steve/Sharon got an inkling of setup to buildup in the previous movie with her guarding him and Natasha trying to set the two up, brief as it was.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#125815: Mar 8th 2021 at 8:05:28 AM

Bruce and Natasha came off as extra weird because it has no setup AND no follow-through. I'm pretty sure in all the subsequent films they don't interact outside of a professional context, but I don't think the fans minded a bit. That was assuredly one of Whedon's worse ideas.

Edited by Beatman1 on Mar 8th 2021 at 11:05:52 AM

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#125816: Mar 8th 2021 at 8:08:00 AM

The one follow-up it had was that seeing Natasha's recorded message caused Bruce to de-Hulk (Hulk in?) in Ragnarok, and the "Awkward" moment in Infinity War. Apart from that, I don't really understand why this relationship had to be there. Maybe the filmmakers think that a character can't be complete without a love interest?

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#125817: Mar 8th 2021 at 8:09:24 AM

There's that one scene in Ragnarok where a transmission of her calms the Hulk down and he switches back to Banner, and some scenes where he mourns her in Endgame. ([nja])

Otherwise very random. If they had to give her a love interest I was surprised they went with that over say, Bucky/Natasha.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 8th 2021 at 10:10:05 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#125818: Mar 8th 2021 at 8:10:13 AM

Yeah, that relationship was by far the most forced one in the MCU so far.

As for poor Sharon, she deserved better than to be left forgotten in favor of a past version of her aunt.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#125819: Mar 8th 2021 at 8:23:38 AM

Yeah, that relationship was by far the most forced one in the MCU so far.
As for poor Sharon, she deserved better than to be left forgotten in favor of a past version of her aunt.

[up] Steve ending up with Sharon is how Endgame should have ended, and would have if the writers didn't have a horrible habit of erasing women from their narrative (I don't actually blame the Russos here, so much as I blame Kevin Feige, who told the writers to cut out the scenes where Steve was with Sharon in IW and Endgame). Sharon Carter was erased with the Blip, and she was originally planned to not only be in Infinity War and Endgame, but for her relationship with Steve to be endgame. The writers made it clear in their movie that every time you go back in time, you create an alternate timeline. This is how a past version of Gamora is living in the future. This is how Nebula was able to kill her past self. This is how Tony Stark was able to kill past versions of Thanos and his army.

Logically, Steve should have gone back in time and rescued all of his friends, not lived a quiet life in an alternate timeline with Peggy Carter, an abusive woman who shot at him* and hired known HYDRA Nazis like Zola to work for the United States government, rather than with the comic canon love of his life, Sharon Carter.

The MCU did Sharon so dirty, giving her role away to Natasha in Winter Soldier, not giving her a larger role in Civil War and letting her be part of the airport battle, erasing her from Infinity War and Endgame, and giving the love of her life to her aunt. And frankly, in recent years, comics haven't been treating Sharon that much better.

Honestly, it's tiring that Peggy Carter is hurting her niece with her very presence. Especially when Peggy is an abusive woman who shot at Steve and hired Nazis for the US government, and Hayley Atwell encouraged her fans to hate on Sharon and Staron, only to then be rewarded for her behavior with the ending she wanted.

* I don’t think Peggy was trying to kill Steve when she did this, but I think she definitely wanted to scare him, definitely wanted the threat of violence to be hanging in the air if he did anything she didn’t like. Peggy does this to Steve while the two of them are NOT TOGETHER after Private Lorraine kissed him—she kissed him—and Peggy now thinks Steve is “just like everyone else” without even bothering to let him explain, acting as the classic irrational idiot, but she takes it a step further. She never explains her own intentions to Steve. He has no idea if she really wants him or if she has a thing with Howard Stark, and she refuses to correct him or be straightforward with him, but she goes around thinking she has the right be angry with him and shoot at him, which if she didn’t know that it was a vibranium shield, could have killed someone in the room with the subsequent ricochet, and she is definitely relying on Steve having fast enough reflexes to move and protect himself.

And if anything, Steve is out of character in the canon scene, because I think that he should not have found her behavior to be okay in the slightest, let alone attractive. He never would have done something like that to her, so why is it okay for her to do something like that to him? They had Chris Evans play it as though he just fell in love with Peggy even more after she shot at him, which I don't understand, because shooting at your potential future love interest really isn't a way to endear yourself to them. It is nothing but an act of violence. I find it disturbing that this scene was made out to be okay, or even romantic, because it only continues to encourage abusive relationships. There's so much talk about domestic violence against women, that it's forgotten that it also happens to men, even if it isn't as common. To create a scene like this, along with many scenes in media where women are shown slapping their boyfriends, creates a mindset in some impressionable people where they start to think abuse against men is okay when it is not.

Edited by dmcreif on Mar 8th 2021 at 11:23:58 AM

Okey Dokey!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#125820: Mar 8th 2021 at 8:25:21 AM

I imagine she'll get her due in Falcon and The Winter Soldier.

In general it really looks like The Falcon and the Winter Soldier is "let's just use every other idea we couldn't do in the cap trilogy".

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
#125821: Mar 8th 2021 at 8:25:44 AM

At least Sharon seems to have a role in Falcon and Winter Soldier and Natasha has her own movie coming up.

[nja]'d

Edited by Aleistar on Mar 8th 2021 at 11:41:51 AM

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#125822: Mar 8th 2021 at 8:45:18 AM

Some t-shirt designs of the Celestials and Kro from The Eternals. Anyone else hyped?

... Anyone else have an idea of what the hell this movie's actually going to be?

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#125823: Mar 8th 2021 at 9:00:57 AM

EDIT wrong video.

Edited by comicwriter on Mar 8th 2021 at 9:02:18 AM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#125824: Mar 8th 2021 at 9:02:58 AM

[up][up]No clue. Just that the Black Knight will be a factor somehow.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#125825: Mar 8th 2021 at 9:04:51 AM

I wonder if they're going to mention more about Eson. Still one of my favorite designs in the MCU.


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