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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#125626: Feb 28th 2021 at 1:44:33 AM

The problem with Marvel villains in phase one and two was that their motivations are spelled out but their personality and threat level tended to be inconsistent. It really came down hard with the Mandarin in Iron Man 3, because the entire point of that reveal was to undermine the build up of Ben Kinsley's charisma, and then we were left with someone still a physical threat but lacking the force of presence of the decoy.

With phase 3 the villains evolved just a little bit, I think some fell into more one-note motivations (ie the "angry ex-Tony Stark employee") but they were committed to being that force of charisma and major threat all the way to the end. That's why Hela worked as well as she does, and definitely why Thanos was so compelling.

It's basically following through with their character traits to the end rather than abandoning it for cheap jokes.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#125627: Feb 28th 2021 at 2:12:08 AM

Not the best look to have Ultron be punked by Cap and Widow. Ultron's strength level is around man-handling Thor so having so much trouble dealing with Cap in a straight physical confrontation does make him look bad.

Though ha, look at Cap trying to choke a robot. [lol]

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#125628: Feb 28th 2021 at 2:26:05 AM

But in the comics Ultron wasn't emotionless. He was a complete psycho.

Yeah, this. People tend to say "MCU Ultron was so much more human and emotional than bland robotic bad guys," but it generally tends to feel like they're doing that by comparing MCU Ultron to villains who aren't Ultron. OG Ultron is very emotional.

If anything, imo I think they wasted James Spader a little bit. Whedon sometimes comes off as believing that being sarcastic and having a tragic backstory is all a character needs to have a personality, and Ultron is a really noticeable example of that - he's capable of quips, but doesn't really have emotions beyond "angry, bitter, and resentful."

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#125629: Feb 28th 2021 at 2:28:29 AM

Well, it's more that they're comparing him EMH Ultron, who is strong but extremely generic "beep, boop, kill all humans" personality-wise, and that's the version I've seen get praise over AOU Ultron.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#125630: Feb 28th 2021 at 2:35:36 AM

At least after upgrading to his Vibranium body, he was able to physically subdue Thor and was only destroyed after a combined assault.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#125631: Feb 28th 2021 at 3:00:31 AM

Yeah, but that came off as kind of a fake-out. He gets this climactic new form, but then the Avengers shoot it and it melts instantly so the most of actual climax is instead him running away.

It's another one of those things that fed into the first two movies' "the Avengers are invincible once they fight together" concept.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 28th 2021 at 3:01:23 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#125632: Feb 28th 2021 at 3:25:30 AM

You'd think a complete Vibranium body would be more durable than that.

Maybe if he had been able to add some Adamantium.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#125633: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:43:45 AM

In the comics his body usually is made of adamantium, and he's appropriately difficult to harm.

Edited by M84 on Feb 28th 2021 at 8:44:03 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#125634: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:45:51 AM

I really enjoyed AOU, but I would like to see Ultron return and do some more crazy shit in a future film, and he has a baked-in excuse whenever they want to bring him back (oh, we didn't destroy all the Ultron-bots).

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#125635: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:48:01 AM

It kind of doesn't work with Tony Stark dead. MCU Ultron was like his comics counterpart in that he's defined by being an Evil Counterpart of his creator (Tony in the MCU, Hank Pym in the comics).

And while comics Ultron has been the Big Bad in stories without Hank Pym, he still mostly works best as a foil to his dad. Ultron basically embodies all of the inner demons Hank Pym spent his lifetime suppressing.

Edited by M84 on Feb 28th 2021 at 8:49:59 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#125636: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:49:21 AM

As it turns out Tony is a downgrade to Hank. tongue

Ironically Tony did date Janet for a while in the last Iron Man run. They broke up in the current and now he's dating Patsy Walker/Hellcat.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 28th 2021 at 4:50:03 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#125637: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:50:15 AM

I think the fact that Tony Stark is dead could be a way to explore Ultron's feelings on his father being gone.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#125638: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:51:15 AM

It helps that Tony doesn't really need a Killer Robot based on his brain to be a foil. He already had several in his own movies - Obadiah Stane, Justin Hammer, Ivan Vanko, and Aldrich Killian.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#125639: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:52:17 AM

Ultron could find a new father figure though no one tell him about Morgan.......

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#125640: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:54:41 AM

At least MCU Ultron didn't also go full Oedipus Complex the way comics Ultron did - MCU Ultron never expressed any attraction to Pepper Pots, while comics Ultron has a weird fixation on Janet Van Dyne.

I wasn't kidding about comics Ultron being fucked up.

Edited by M84 on Feb 28th 2021 at 8:55:20 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#125641: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:56:01 AM

> I think the fact that Tony Stark is dead could be a way to explore Ultron's feelings on his father being gone.

He'll be upset he didn't get to kill him,I think

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#125642: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:58:00 AM

Comics Ultron meanwhile did end up killing Hank Pym. But he's in denial about it and believes they ended up in a Fusion Dance where he ended up in control (they did fuse, but the process killed Hank).

Then Hank Pym got his soul eaten by a spider demon. Because comics writers hate Hank Pym.

Edited by M84 on Feb 28th 2021 at 8:58:50 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#125643: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:58:24 AM

He has an extreme obsession with family.

Has kidnapped Vision, Wonder Man, and Scarlet Witch due to considering them all family.

Wonder Man's brainwaves being used to create his son Vision and Scarlet Witch being Vision's wife effectively makes her his daughter-in-law.

Huh Tony really isn't that interesting when you think about it. He doesn't really offer much of anything interesting to Ultron. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#125644: Feb 28th 2021 at 4:59:43 AM

MCU Tony was at his most interesting in his own movies.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#125645: Feb 28th 2021 at 5:08:02 AM

Actually now that I think about it, Tony is kind of a plot tumor or whatever is the right term.

He hijacked the Spider-Man movies with the 2 villains motivations stemming from him, having major involvement in Homecoming and despite being dead in Far From Home he was still a big deal as the film essentially centered around his legacy which removed Spider-Man’s own independence, making him sorta Iron Kid.

And now Ultron is effectively stuck to him unless the character is somehow majorly reworked so any possible future appearance he might have won’t majorly reference Tony.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 28th 2021 at 5:08:41 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#125646: Feb 28th 2021 at 5:34:27 AM

I remember feeling for Ultron a few times actually in Ao U.

Maybe this was just the way I read the performance, but he seemed to earnestly like Wanda. When Wanda turns on him, he seems genuinely hurt by it, and when she confronts his mangled body later on, he tells her, very softly, that she needs to get away before the city falls.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 28th 2021 at 1:58:34 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#125647: Feb 28th 2021 at 6:02:57 AM

Ultron is honestly the best of the villains that are considered shitty in my opinion because he may be a cliche Whedon bad guy but he at least has a personality that can be described.

The legend has returned.
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#125648: Feb 28th 2021 at 6:18:39 AM

[up] I'd agree with that.

I'd also give Kaecilius a bit of a shout. A little one. Maybe more of a squeak than a shout.

I actually don't hate Kaecilius because I think he has one of the best scenes in the movie. The scene where Strange has him tied up and he explains why he thinks the Ancient One is bad. I wish we'd gotten more of that kinda stuff from him throughout the film.

I feel like maybe I misread that scene or imagined something that wasn't really there because no one else seems to remember that scene at all. XD

Edited by GNinja on Feb 28th 2021 at 2:37:10 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#125649: Feb 28th 2021 at 6:28:33 AM

Whatever faults AOU had, it is still miles better than the comic event it's name (and thankfully nothing else) was based on.

I mean, there have been many, many crappy events throughout the history of comics. But Age of Ultron is by far and away THE worst one I've EVER read.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#125650: Feb 28th 2021 at 6:37:33 AM

> But Age of Ultron is by far and away THE worst one I've EVER read.

OK,I'll bite,why is it so bad?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server

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