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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#124926: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:17:37 PM

pretty much all of those heroes would logically try to stop a mass-murderer with more guns than some small countries shooting up neighborhoods every other wednesday

Okay, Punisher is very far from a role model, but let's not pretend he's mass murdering innocent civilians. The people he targets are (to varying degree Depending on the Writer) the most heinous of criminals. The usual portrayal isn't having him out there shooting people for jaywalking. Of course Spider-Man and the like would immediately kick his ass if he was just an indiscriminate psycho, but he's not. He's an extremely dark Anti-Hero, not an outright villain.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#124927: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:23:27 PM

The Punisher does not have the highest body count in marvel. But he's a guy in a shirt who shoots guns and fights normal people so what he does gets more flak than Wolverine or Deadpool or others.

He gets more flak because he's completely unreasonable.

Spider-Man can talk Wolverine and even Deadpool from killing someone, but you he can't do the same with Frank.

Frank doesn't care if a someone he deems a bad guy is harmless or repentant, he's still going to try to kill them.

[up]

Pretty sure Stilt-Man wasn't a heinous criminal and that didn't stop Frank from shooting him.

And heroes like Spider-Man do in fact see Frank as an outright villain. Peter was furious when Frank killed the aforementioned Stilt-Man.

Edited by Cortez on Feb 8th 2021 at 6:26:14 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124928: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:25:57 PM

Daredevil flat out despises him as shown in the recent DD run.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#124929: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:26:09 PM

Stilt-Man is a Complete Monster.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#124930: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:27:28 PM

Let's not forget that he didn't even think twice about attempting to kill Spidey in his first appearance, and if the Jackal wasn't an idiot he wouldn't have seen any problem with it.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124931: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:28:20 PM

Frank is essentially a zealot and no one likes zealots.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#124932: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:31:55 PM

[up]×2

That's the other things, he sometimes goes after innocent people because he thinks they're criminals.

Only stopped when a hero steps in.

FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#124933: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:36:17 PM

[up]x6 Like I said, it is depending on the writer. By changing what crimes he's willing to kill over the writers can make him more or less sympathetic to serve the needs of the story.

But the version I'd say most people think of when they think of the Punisher isn't going after Saturday morning cartoon villains, but rapists, murderers, slavers and the like. Because that's the only way he can come off as at least somewhat sympathetic.

[nja]

Edited by FGHIK on Feb 8th 2021 at 2:36:51 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#124934: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:37:52 PM

I didn't say he killed innocents, but I don't think "shooting up neighborhoods" is a inaccurate description of what he does (if perhaps a harsh one). Castle's M.O is pretty regularly shown as him using weapons of war (like grenades, gatling guns, claymore mines and even rocket-launchers) against criminals in residential areas or even in the middle of the street, things that you absolutely should not be firing wily nily in the middle of a residential area unless Castle has a secret omega mutation that makes stray bullets (both fired by him and of the criminals he's instigating a shoot-out in the middle of a residential area with) not exist.

He's also fairly indiscriminate about what kind of criminals he targets in most characterizations. Brutalizing or outright killing pickpockets and muggers has been a fairly common M.O for him.

Logically, every urban hero in New York should be trying to stop this maniac from using weapons of war in residential neighborhoods against even non-violent offenders on occasion. They don't for nebulous reasons (admiration? too much hassle? it varies) because writers have to justify the coexistence of these people.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#124935: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:42:26 PM

A lot I think depends on how sympathetic we want the Punisher to be.

If we want him to be an unambiguous protagonist, then we need to dial up the threshold it takes for him to go after someone to the point that's far beyond almost anyone who turned to crime out of desperation. Which means he's pretty much only going to go after corrupt organizations.

Alternatively, he could fill an antagonistic role. While he probably wouldn't get to the point of shooting up jaywalkers, the focus would still be on how his overly lethal methods actually make things worse. Essentially like how if theft is punishable by death, a burglar has no incentive to spare a homeowner who caught them in the act.

There's also a middle ground, where he isn't clearly either an antagonist or protagonist. His lethal methods seem effective on the surface, but it's arguable how necessary they really are and whether or not they are really worth the risk of killing an innocent person by mistake, which perhaps he could come very close to doing on screen. While this is the best option, it's also the hardest option to pull off properly.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#124936: Feb 8th 2021 at 3:17:15 PM

[up]×2

Spider-Man does in fact try to do just that. Spidey has zero tolerance for Frank.

Like I said, it is depending on the writer.

It's still a consistent part of his character. Frank is remorseless even when criminals are genuinely repentant.

Edited by Cortez on Feb 8th 2021 at 7:41:52 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#124937: Feb 8th 2021 at 3:19:23 PM

His lethal methods can’t be too effective if there’s always more extremely violent criminals to kill

By that same token, superheroes trying to throw people in jail can’t be too effective but that’s at least mostly the same people. Punisher seems to actually create crime if you think about it while applying this dumb logic

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124938: Feb 8th 2021 at 3:20:25 PM

Reminds me how the Avengers don't have that much of problem when Frank operates but the minute Deadpool does anything wrong, they sick every hero in the world at him.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#124939: Feb 8th 2021 at 3:21:18 PM

Yeah sounds like bad writing

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124940: Feb 8th 2021 at 3:22:43 PM

He is literally the only hero to suffer major consequences for Secret Empire just because he killed Coulson under orders of Hydra Cap.

Meanwhile Frank willingly joined and became Hydra's watchdog with absolute obedience to Hydra Cap.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 8th 2021 at 3:25:28 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#124941: Feb 8th 2021 at 3:30:29 PM

Sounds like really bad writing

Par for the course with secret empire but you hates to see it

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#124942: Feb 8th 2021 at 3:32:26 PM

Writers have occasionally implied that Castle has in fact made crime worse: by conducting a indiscriminate warpath against crime with weapons of war, he has caused crime to radicalize itself and grow increasingly more militarized and ruthless in an attempt to counteract and stop Castle. By a reason of logic, the less violent and well-armed criminals are easier prey for Castle, leaving the really unhinged maniacs to consolidate their strength.

Basically, Castle is radicalizing crime. This is actually based in reality, as this chain of events often happens when the government decides to fight crime with just more guns and more tanks (rather than solving or alleviating the socioeconomic issues that lead to organized crime in the first place).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124943: Feb 8th 2021 at 3:33:13 PM

Out of every hero who either voluntarily or forcibly joined Hydra (including villains like Taskmaster and Black Ant), somehow Deadpool is literally the only person to have killed anyone.

Yeah its some shit-tier writing.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#124944: Feb 8th 2021 at 3:35:02 PM

Aren't all Major Events these days? One of the main reasons I stopped consuming comics alltogether.

It's just one mindless crossover event after the other. Like 4 or 5 per year. The MCU (or the Arrowverse, for that matter) is much better with the dosage, crossovers in adaptations are actually still exiting.

In the comics, it's like Tuesday.

Edited by Forenperser on Feb 8th 2021 at 12:35:28 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#124945: Feb 8th 2021 at 4:01:09 PM

I love how both Avengers: Endgame and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. threw shade at Secret Empire. That was hilarious.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#124946: Feb 8th 2021 at 4:59:18 PM

Writers have occasionally implied that Castle has in fact made crime worse: by conducting a indiscriminate warpath against crime with weapons of war, he has caused crime to radicalize itself and grow increasingly more militarized and ruthless in an attempt to counteract and stop Castle.

The opening sequence of Daredevil s2ep4 does a pretty good job showcasing this, with Cooley rallying the Irish mob into gangbanging Hell's Kitchen just to hunt Castle down.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
IronScope STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS. from Somewhere Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS.
#124947: Feb 8th 2021 at 6:16:46 PM

One of the Punisher movies (2004?) had him running around in Florida for reasons of "moviemaker tax breaks", but moving him out of New York to some other stock Wretched Hive would explain how he runs around shooting people without Spider-Man or some other New Yorker hero pushing his shit in.

This place is careless.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#124948: Feb 8th 2021 at 6:36:13 PM

Y'know, with Peter being framed for a bunch of crimes, this would have been a golden opportunity to introduce the Punisher as a misguided vigilante trying to take down that menace Spider-Man.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#124949: Feb 8th 2021 at 7:17:58 PM

Weird development:

The Twitter account made for that Inhumans show everybody absolutely loathed tweeted the newest trailer for The Falcon & The Winter Soldier.

It's weird because the page's last tweet was waaaaaaaaaaay back in 2019. Might this be a clue to how the Inhumans will be rebirthed via TF&TWS? Could it be picking up on the plot thread WandaVision brought up regarding something going on in New Jersey? winkwinkwink

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Feb 8th 2021 at 7:18:13 AM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#124950: Feb 8th 2021 at 7:21:34 PM

[up]Hopefully it’s a Red Herring. They have the mutants.


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