TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#124901: Feb 7th 2021 at 9:13:49 PM

Fingers crossed for Ms Marvel being good.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#124902: Feb 7th 2021 at 9:25:45 PM

Here's a thought: what if you made a Punisher movie, but the criminals he's gunning down are violent/corrupt cops?

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#124903: Feb 7th 2021 at 9:36:50 PM

I doubt they would go that far, or they would depict the cops as the exception "rotten apples" rather than the norm. Even an actual supervillain like Harley Quinn in an R-rated movie couldn't do worse than knock out cops with beanbags.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#124904: Feb 7th 2021 at 9:39:06 PM

[up][up]I'm not sure. It might be seen as the bad kind of pandering and lacking in any substance.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#124905: Feb 7th 2021 at 10:17:20 PM

The actual TV spot they showed today at the Super Bowl has some different footage and audio than the trailer, it seems.

BOOXMOWO Since: Mar, 2013
#124906: Feb 8th 2021 at 8:55:28 AM

[up][up][up][up] It definitely does not matter. The problem with the Punisher is that his mindset seems to be that homicide is acceptable if the target is a criminal and that the less homicidal methods of justice are inadequate, which parallels the mindset of real murderer cops. How the fictional police are portrayed in the story is irrelevant; the problem starts the moment Frank is framed as sympathetic.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#124907: Feb 8th 2021 at 9:02:59 AM

I think the Punisher's issue is that he's a real life guy who's supposed to be "realistic". That's why Batman gets more criticism than most other superheroes.

The Punisher does not have the highest body count in marvel. But he's a guy in a shirt who shoots guns and fights normal people so what he does gets more flak than Wolverine or Deadpool or others.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#124908: Feb 8th 2021 at 12:45:57 PM

The Punisher's issue is that he is essentially a mass shooter, just one who conveniently only ever targets people that audience has been conditioned to believe "deserve" to die. Real life, however, isn't quite so black and white (no pun intended).

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#124909: Feb 8th 2021 at 12:52:25 PM

And that is exactly what Escapism is for - not being the real life.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#124910: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:06:08 PM

It is possible the Punisher might work perfectly well if, intead of the typical criminals he targets, Frank in a movie instead goes after people like white supremacist gangs and corrupt cops.

But that's a big "if", and more to the point, I doubt Disney would be particularly interested in doing much with the Punisher either way when it had plenty of other R-Rated heroes to make movies and series out of now, like Deadpool, Moon Knight, Blade and (fingers crossed) X-23.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#124911: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:06:45 PM

Some fiction is better at escaping our world than others. I pointed to John Wick as an example where his world is clearly made much more heightened than our own. "It's okay to kill secret orders of assassins" versus "it's okay to kill civilians who are actually robbers, abusers, other forms of crime we see on the news" are two very different things, and one is much easier to carry over into the real world than the other.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#124912: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:08:59 PM

Maybe he should be the white collar Punisher and go after Wall Street

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#124913: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:10:13 PM

A slasher movie where the Punisher goes to Wall Street and starts systematically killing all the rich cunts he comes across in the most over-the-top ways imaginable.

I'd pay good money for that one.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#124914: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:11:02 PM

Frank doesn't just go after street thugs, he has gone after corrupt government officials as well, countless times.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#124915: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:20:33 PM

For The Punisher to work, it must exist in a world with corrupt or ineffectual authorities and the worst possible kind of criminal scum. This is a very different tone from the rest of the MCU and I cannot see how they could be reconciled.

Deadpool works because Wade's problems are generally too small in scale to attract the attention of folks like the Avengers (or the X-Men), although they cross paths frequently enough and it's sufficiently irreverent to poke fun at the incongruities it creates.

Spider-Man works because it maintains an optimistic tone and is more about Peter's problems then it is about the heinousness of the villains. Also, MCU Spidey is intimately connected to the other characters.

Frank Castle doesn't fit the tone of the MCU at all, not unless they radically change the status quo.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 8th 2021 at 4:24:00 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#124916: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:21:53 PM

Well Frank's scale is even smaller than all of these guy's.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124917: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:22:31 PM

He is a loser in the grand scheme of things.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#124918: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:23:42 PM

I question that designation.

Because if Frank is a loser, so is Daredevil, and I don't take kindly to insults towards ol' horned hear.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#124919: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:27:59 PM

The Punisher mamaged to appear in a Spider-Man cartoon where he wasn't allowed to shoot people, and the super kiddy Super Hero Squad Show, the MCU isn't that weird.

And like was said above, Frank is really small scale. His appearances in books with other superheroes or villains usually end with him getting beaten up because he's out of his league. It's not like they'd adapt the story where he became an angel or anything, that'd actually be something big.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124920: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:33:28 PM

[up][up] Hey at least Matt helps people, he does more than just beating ass.

All Frank does is kill, kill, kill and nothing else. It’s a fundamentally sad existence. Even Deadpool has more purpose than him.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#124921: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:34:53 PM

[up][up]Yeah and honestly, it was even more cringey than Wolverine not being allowed to cut anything with his claws in several cartoons.

The Punisher is not meant to be a kid-friendly character.

Edited by Forenperser on Feb 8th 2021 at 10:35:09 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#124922: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:36:53 PM

The Super Hero Squad appearance was forgivable since it was a deliberate piss take. They even got Ray Stevenson to reprise the role.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#124923: Feb 8th 2021 at 1:55:43 PM

The best Punisher moment is when he gets run over by the Shocker and goes flying through the air with the same stoically disgruntled expression

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#124924: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:02:09 PM

And the best part is that Shocker is often considered a joke villain these days, despite how dangerous he really is.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#124925: Feb 8th 2021 at 2:05:32 PM

The scale of Frank isn't really a problem, for me, it's more the locale. Castle is almost always shown operating in New York, the very same place with more heroes per mile radius than anywhere on earth, and pretty much all of those heroes would logically try to stop a mass-murderer with more guns than some small countries shooting up neighborhoods every other wednesday. Frank would work better if he was more in a setting that would allow him to stretch his legs and not in fact get his shit kicked in after a week of operations when Spider-Man, Luke Cage, Daredevil, Iron Fist and probably even Doctor Strange crawl out of the woodwork to absolutely wreck his ass without writer fiat to stop them.

While MCU NY isn't quite as crowded yet, Spidey being such a element raises the same question. Move up Castle to L.A, San Francisco, Chicago, somewhere else far away from New York or just give up and make Frank a antagonist as I've said a handful of times.

As me and Tucker also previously pointed out, John Wick is a good point of contrast with Punisher as both franchises deal with the same central appeal: gun-based cathartic violent revenge. John Wick's heightened world helps it be more fantastical and separate from reality, but it also helps that the franchise is less "judgemental", if you will. While Castle is inevitably framed as a man on a righteous crusade against filthy criminals, John Wick's setting has John very much on the same moral tier as the other characters and villains (i.e they're all violent criminals) and thus the story allows itself to be much more easy-going. Wick's evidently the hero because he's never the instigator of the conflict and he's a incredibly nice man if you don't mess with him, but even Wick himself doesn't seem to hold a grudge against these professional assassins unless they go out of their way to fuck with him (and sometimes even when they do, he can still maintain a sense of civility and professional courtesy). I love the way one review of Chapter 2 put it: "The movie says that even in hell, there’s such a thing as decorum.".

If we took a Wickian approach to Castle we'd presumably have him deal with colorful, outlandish assassin networks underneath society in a Urban Fantasy-esque way and have Castle himself be more interwined with the criminal world rather than conducting a mass-murdering warpath against all manner of crime.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

Total posts: 186,763
Top