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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I really think people kind of over-estimate Disney's concerns about R-rated content. Especially now that they've announced that in other countries where Hulu doesn't have a presence, they're straight up bringing adult content from Fox/Touchstone/other things they own to Disney+ via the Star hub.
I'd say Punisher's more problematic due to how certain groups have taken his methods and the use of his symbol, but aside from the fact that "stupid people have co-opted this thing so we can't use this thing anymore" is a dumb way to let said stupid people win, I don't think it would preclude Punisher from showing up in other projects if not necessarily headlining his own.
I think the face of Marvel right now are the Avengers as a property. Everything is more Avengers adjacent than ever before and that became their bread and butter.
The problem is, the Punisher is a problematic character. Making a admirable figure out of a character whose entire purpose is conducting a mass-murdering campaign against everyone he deems criminal is a good way to attract fascists no matter what, and I feel like Disney has some level of awareness of the absolute hornets nest that would be. They would need to figure something our or just use him as a villain (which is honestly my preferred concept).
Hawkeye came dangerously close to that definition in Endgame.
Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.Man I always find it weird what they did to Hawkeye in Endgame, and how many fans and critics said it was an "improvement". When he was just basically the Punisher. I still personally prefer his characterization in Ultron. Not perfect, but actual depth, as opposed to angst for angst sake.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadI love the Punisher, and would love to see Bernthal reprise the role. I wouldn't mind a film with him, and also don't think the character should be banned. But it's the sort of thing, Disney might do.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 7th 2021 at 3:33:01 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadHe did, but only as a pre-emptor to a redemption arc of sorts (i.e his days doing that were framed as pretty much horrible and something he needed to move on and atone from). The Punisher is that concept, but as a (variably) admirable thing to do rather than something to atone.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."I liked the Punisher series a lot but I think you had to separate it from a lot of IRL context. It's a very tricky line to walk with the character and in fact maybe they should just retire him altogether.
Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)Ironically, with the exception of his appearance on Daredevil Netflix Frank Castle was one of the more tame/heroic versions of the character I've seen. He's still brutal af, but the moral ambiguity of his actions basically vanishes once he moves over to the actual Punisher show - it ended up being more akin to something like Taken.
I think there's ways to adapt gun-happy vigilante heroes in a way that doesn't encourage real world imitation, like how the John Wick films have a more exaggerated atmosphere that separates that world from our own, so there's definitely something to be examined about the Punisher fiction if that distinction isn't being drawn and bullies are mapping his methods to apply to real life.
The Punisher is a concept that in theory I like: an extremely violent, traunatized person that uses violence as an outlet.
The problem, as Gaon outlined, is the fact that while several of his interpretations have shown his lifestyle as self-destructive, none yet have gone as far as condemning it.
I see a story of Punisher as one of moral degradation, where the vigilante gets more violent and targets increasingly more questionable criminals until they either die an inglorious death as nothing more than another mass murderer or catches himself and starts on a long, difficult journey of becoming a tolerable human being.
Or just lets himself be jailed, to save time.
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It helps that in his own series he's mostly fighting unsympathetic corrupt government agents and PMCs rather than random street criminals. Nobody's gonna feel sorry for Bill Rawlins getting his eyes gouged out.
He's also focused more on protecting some hapless innocent like a gun-toting Fairy Godmother rather than just going on the warpath for war's own sake.
But they already did once before, together with Netflix.
Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Feb 7th 2021 at 4:54:49 AM
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!If you want to twist my words into a strawman so you can pin non-existent censorship boogeymen to grind an axe against, then yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is a pretty basic thing that the character is a political hornets nest, particularly in the current climate. The thing of "a few people losing the point!" is a particularly silly point to make because the Punisher has fairly regularly (I'd even say the for majority of his existence) been written as if "all criminals deserve to be shot in the face and Castle's crusade is absolutely righteous" is the point you have to take from the character. The fascists agreeing with him are not losing the point, they're getting the (possible) point.
Can he be done in a more tactful way that doesn't end up encouraging fascists? Yes, and this has happened before both in the comics and attempted in the films. But that requires a lot of groundwork that might not even solve the issues completely. Netflix's Punisher itself struggled as the Daredevil version of Punisher was much closer to that more mainstream "all criminals deserve to die, so says Frank Castle" character ethos (see the arc with Grotto, which had actually a bunch of criticisms where the show seemed to be supporting Frank's point) but his own show had a case where Netflix realized the dangers of what they were doing (and the ensuing political shitstorm this could cause) and backslid into a Lighter and Softer characterization where he does fairly regularly consider and does) let his enemies live and had his villains primarily be corrupt government officers and the like rather ethnic criminals as it is often the case in the comics and avoiding the commonplace bagful of yikes of scenes like Castle going to the Bronx and emptying a M134 minigun in a urban tenement because he saw a couple of drug dealers in the viccinity. But this also led to inconsistent characterizations (Netflix's Castle ethos seems to change pretty radically after DD and he goes back and forth if he should shoot military men in self-defense in his own show) and some have accused the character of "not being Punisher enough". It's a tricky balance to walk.
The problem with the Punisher is so old, it actually predates the character: he was, after all, originally conceived as a villain for Spider-Man to fight. Which is the role I honestly like him best and where I think the MCU should put him, as I said literally in this page.
My point was, the character is very problematic, and Disney is likely to steer clear of him until they figure out a palatable way to portray him because they have better shit to do with their family-friendly franchise so far than leaping headifrst into a r-rated series that might accidentally do a fascism if they don't tread carefully. Like "turning the dial" with other r-rated stories (Deadpool, Blade) that aren't a hornet's nest.
Edited by Gaon on Feb 7th 2021 at 1:59:54 AM
"All you Fascists bound to lose."I honestly admit, even though I would obviously never condone someone like Frank in Real Life, The Punisher is a kind of Cathartic Character for me.
He appeals to my darker side, sometimes I just want to let go, stop overthinking and simply enjoy seeing irredeemable bad guys getting destroyed.
Edited by Forenperser on Feb 7th 2021 at 12:07:15 PM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianThat's the real fun of it. He's kind of cumbersome to have as a viewpoint hero in a shared universe with more grounded standard heroes, though.
The contrast between him in Daredevil S2 and his own show kinda displays that, much as I love his show in a vacuum.
Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Feb 7th 2021 at 6:05:30 AM
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

Though personally I don't really see them doing anything with the Punisher for the time being anyways.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 7th 2021 at 2:34:34 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread