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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#124826: Feb 7th 2021 at 12:32:45 PM

[up][up] They are making an R-Rated Deadpool 3. So why is that so hard to believe?

Though personally I don't really see them doing anything with the Punisher for the time being anyways.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 7th 2021 at 2:34:34 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#124827: Feb 7th 2021 at 12:56:48 PM

Disney is a behemoth composed of so many brands now, they could probably make something with the darker Marvel stuff under some other name. Like 20th Century.

Wake me up at your own risk.
djoki996 Since: Dec, 2018
#124828: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:00:41 PM

I'm pretty sure Spider-Man is the face of Marvel.

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#124829: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:02:34 PM

I really think people kind of over-estimate Disney's concerns about R-rated content. Especially now that they've announced that in other countries where Hulu doesn't have a presence, they're straight up bringing adult content from Fox/Touchstone/other things they own to Disney+ via the Star hub.

I'd say Punisher's more problematic due to how certain groups have taken his methods and the use of his symbol, but aside from the fact that "stupid people have co-opted this thing so we can't use this thing anymore" is a dumb way to let said stupid people win, I don't think it would preclude Punisher from showing up in other projects if not necessarily headlining his own.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#124830: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:09:07 PM

I think the face of Marvel right now are the Avengers as a property. Everything is more Avengers adjacent than ever before and that became their bread and butter.

[up] The problem is, the Punisher is a problematic character. Making a admirable figure out of a character whose entire purpose is conducting a mass-murdering campaign against everyone he deems criminal is a good way to attract fascists no matter what, and I feel like Disney has some level of awareness of the absolute hornets nest that would be. They would need to figure something our or just use him as a villain (which is honestly my preferred concept).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#124831: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:09:35 PM

Prior to the Fox-Men, Spider-Man and Hulk were the undisputed mascots of Marvel, their counterpart to Superman and Batman. Wolverine and various members of the F4 occasionally got into that club, but Spider-Man and Hulk were the mainstays.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#124832: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:17:12 PM

a character whose entire purpose is conducting a mass-murdering campaign against everyone he deems criminal

Hawkeye came dangerously close to that definition in Endgame.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#124833: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:22:10 PM

If that’s an argument for ditching both that Hawkeye with the Punisher then I’ll take it. tongue

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#124834: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:26:24 PM

Man I always find it weird what they did to Hawkeye in Endgame, and how many fans and critics said it was an "improvement". When he was just basically the Punisher. I still personally prefer his characterization in Ultron. Not perfect, but actual depth, as opposed to angst for angst sake.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#124835: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:27:44 PM

Damn, just because there are a couple of assholes who miss the point doesn't mean that making a Punisher movie or series should be banned.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#124836: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:29:35 PM

I love the Punisher, and would love to see Bernthal reprise the role. I wouldn't mind a film with him, and also don't think the character should be banned. But it's the sort of thing, Disney might do.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 7th 2021 at 3:33:01 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#124837: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:32:38 PM

Hawkeye came dangerously close to that definition in Endgame.

He did, but only as a pre-emptor to a redemption arc of sorts (i.e his days doing that were framed as pretty much horrible and something he needed to move on and atone from). The Punisher is that concept, but as a (variably) admirable thing to do rather than something to atone.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#124838: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:35:07 PM

[up]So according to you, should they censor the Punisher, and ban making a movie or series, just because a couple of crazy people could lose the point?

Maybe I'm overreacting, but that seems to be what you mean.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Feb 7th 2021 at 1:37:21 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#124840: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:44:09 PM

Castle is a guy with an absurd arsenal of regular guns that shoots every criminal he sees, mainly small ones. With the issues with shootings and the repudiation of police brutality, The Punisher would just be a flood of bad publicity for them.

Wake me up at your own risk.
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#124841: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:45:09 PM

I liked the Punisher series a lot but I think you had to separate it from a lot of IRL context. It's a very tricky line to walk with the character and in fact maybe they should just retire him altogether.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124842: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:47:34 PM

Ironically, with the exception of his appearance on Daredevil Netflix Frank Castle was one of the more tame/heroic versions of the character I've seen. He's still brutal af, but the moral ambiguity of his actions basically vanishes once he moves over to the actual Punisher show - it ended up being more akin to something like Taken.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#124843: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:52:51 PM

I think there's ways to adapt gun-happy vigilante heroes in a way that doesn't encourage real world imitation, like how the John Wick films have a more exaggerated atmosphere that separates that world from our own, so there's definitely something to be examined about the Punisher fiction if that distinction isn't being drawn and bullies are mapping his methods to apply to real life.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#124844: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:53:15 PM

The Punisher is a concept that in theory I like: an extremely violent, traunatized person that uses violence as an outlet.

The problem, as Gaon outlined, is the fact that while several of his interpretations have shown his lifestyle as self-destructive, none yet have gone as far as condemning it.

I see a story of Punisher as one of moral degradation, where the vigilante gets more violent and targets increasingly more questionable criminals until they either die an inglorious death as nothing more than another mass murderer or catches himself and starts on a long, difficult journey of becoming a tolerable human being.

Or just lets himself be jailed, to save time.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#124845: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:53:54 PM

[up][up][up]It helps that in his own series he's mostly fighting unsympathetic corrupt government agents and PMCs rather than random street criminals. Nobody's gonna feel sorry for Bill Rawlins getting his eyes gouged out.

He's also focused more on protecting some hapless innocent like a gun-toting Fairy Godmother rather than just going on the warpath for war's own sake.

Marvel-Disney making R-Rated Content? Yeah, not in this lifetime.

But they already did once before, together with Netflix.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Feb 7th 2021 at 4:54:49 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#124846: Feb 7th 2021 at 1:58:39 PM

So according to you, should they censor the Punisher, and ban making a movie or series, just because a couple of crazy people could lose the point?

If you want to twist my words into a strawman so you can pin non-existent censorship boogeymen to grind an axe against, then yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is a pretty basic thing that the character is a political hornets nest, particularly in the current climate. The thing of "a few people losing the point!" is a particularly silly point to make because the Punisher has fairly regularly (I'd even say the for majority of his existence) been written as if "all criminals deserve to be shot in the face and Castle's crusade is absolutely righteous" is the point you have to take from the character. The fascists agreeing with him are not losing the point, they're getting the (possible) point.

Can he be done in a more tactful way that doesn't end up encouraging fascists? Yes, and this has happened before both in the comics and attempted in the films. But that requires a lot of groundwork that might not even solve the issues completely. Netflix's Punisher itself struggled as the Daredevil version of Punisher was much closer to that more mainstream "all criminals deserve to die, so says Frank Castle" character ethos (see the arc with Grotto, which had actually a bunch of criticisms where the show seemed to be supporting Frank's point) but his own show had a case where Netflix realized the dangers of what they were doing (and the ensuing political shitstorm this could cause) and backslid into a Lighter and Softer characterization where he does fairly regularly consider and does) let his enemies live and had his villains primarily be corrupt government officers and the like rather ethnic criminals as it is often the case in the comics and avoiding the commonplace bagful of yikes of scenes like Castle going to the Bronx and emptying a M134 minigun in a urban tenement because he saw a couple of drug dealers in the viccinity. But this also led to inconsistent characterizations (Netflix's Castle ethos seems to change pretty radically after DD and he goes back and forth if he should shoot military men in self-defense in his own show) and some have accused the character of "not being Punisher enough". It's a tricky balance to walk.

The problem with the Punisher is so old, it actually predates the character: he was, after all, originally conceived as a villain for Spider-Man to fight. Which is the role I honestly like him best and where I think the MCU should put him, as I said literally in this page.

My point was, the character is very problematic, and Disney is likely to steer clear of him until they figure out a palatable way to portray him because they have better shit to do with their family-friendly franchise so far than leaping headifrst into a r-rated series that might accidentally do a fascism if they don't tread carefully. Like "turning the dial" with other r-rated stories (Deadpool, Blade) that aren't a hornet's nest.

Edited by Gaon on Feb 7th 2021 at 1:59:54 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#124847: Feb 7th 2021 at 2:36:11 PM

I'd settle for having him as a secondary character and anti-hero in other heroes' shows/movies rather than having his own series again.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Feb 7th 2021 at 5:36:37 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#124848: Feb 7th 2021 at 2:54:12 PM

Same, I think Punisher works best as a foil for other heroes, and the Punisher show already showed us the main appeal of Punisher as a protagonist, there's no reason to do that again.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#124849: Feb 7th 2021 at 3:02:11 PM

I honestly admit, even though I would obviously never condone someone like Frank in Real Life, The Punisher is a kind of Cathartic Character for me.

He appeals to my darker side, sometimes I just want to let go, stop overthinking and simply enjoy seeing irredeemable bad guys getting destroyed.

Edited by Forenperser on Feb 7th 2021 at 12:07:15 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#124850: Feb 7th 2021 at 3:03:52 PM

That's the real fun of it. He's kind of cumbersome to have as a viewpoint hero in a shared universe with more grounded standard heroes, though.

The contrast between him in Daredevil S2 and his own show kinda displays that, much as I love his show in a vacuum.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Feb 7th 2021 at 6:05:30 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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