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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#124726: Feb 2nd 2021 at 1:19:03 PM

I'm wondering how Thanos shook up Zemo's perspective. Does he view the Avengers differently due them being necessary to take the big Titan down, or is he glad Thanos killed a bunch of them and just intends to finish the job? Or does he blame them for the Snap? Or possibly the aftermath of the Blip, depending on how chaotic it was.

[down]We don't.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Feb 2nd 2021 at 1:26:19 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#124727: Feb 2nd 2021 at 1:23:13 PM

Do we know whether or not he was Blipped in the first place?

The legend has returned.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#124728: Feb 2nd 2021 at 1:32:40 PM

One way or another, Zemo's thesis is proven wrong (or at least very strongly challenged) by the Infinity duology, which is the likely impetus for his return to supervillainy. As he puts it, his thesis is: "An empire toppled by its enemies can rise again. But one which crumbles from within? That's dead... forever.". He successfully made "The Avengers crumble from within" by his definition, but they got back together eventually and saved the world from Thanos (with some major delays).

If he survived the snap he must have been feeling vindicated that the Avengers partially failed because of their inability to come together, but Endgame has them actually come together and undo Thanos's misdeeds.

I figure Zemo (snapped or not) must be now trying to rationalize the disconnect between his convictions and the end result. Maybe he even did a full circle around his beliefs and concluded that the Avengers c. Endgame have grown stronger and deserving of their heroism because of the inner strife he caused them.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#124729: Feb 2nd 2021 at 1:51:08 PM

Man, I love that line.

As for his role in the series, if they are prepping up for a possible Thunderbolts in the future, maybe this is Zemo trying to redeem himself? Or at least this series will put him on the path towards redemption.

He certainly got the skills.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124730: Feb 2nd 2021 at 1:56:15 PM

Well Iron Man's dead and Cap and Thor are gone so even if there are heroes still around, might as well try to replace Earth's Mightiest Heroes with your own. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
#124731: Feb 2nd 2021 at 1:57:36 PM

[up] There is the slight risk that would end up retreading MCU!Mysterio's plan, but it would still be pretty interesting.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#124732: Feb 2nd 2021 at 1:59:15 PM

Perhaps it would be interesting if the conclusion of Zemo's arc is the idea that his actions don't make sense and aren't logically consistent with his motives during the events of Civil War.

He wanted to break apart the Avengers because he held them responsible for the deaths of his family, but now he's just blindly lashing out at anyone affiliated with the name because he doesn't know what else to do with his life.

What he does when confronted with this revelation could actually result in a Heel–Face Turn...or he might just double down on his current path.

AmazingSpiderHam Since: Sep, 2020
#124733: Feb 2nd 2021 at 2:08:45 PM

Thunderbolts and Dark Avengers are more interesting when you get to know the villains prior to their recasting in 'hero' roles, so it wouldn't be the same in the context of the MCU. You'd probably have to spend a whole phase developing a Moonstone, a Songbird, a Fixer, a Mac Gargan, an Atlas, a Beetle, not to mention Daken is out of the question for a long while.

Although I guess it might be neat to see Netflix's Bullseye as the next Hawkeye. Then make him fight Kate Bishop for the role. But I think that'd be too much of a dream.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124734: Feb 2nd 2021 at 3:17:13 PM

Guy bombed a U.N embassy. Line has been crossed.

While true, Zemo was specifically a terrorist motivated by being against the kind of thing that being a supervillain would represent.

It's one of the reasons why even though Zemo is the traditional founder of the Masters of Evil, I'm not sure it would make sense for MCU Zemo to so: Zemo hates supervillains as much as he does superheroes, and the one we meet in Civil War would have been caught dead working with some let alone fostering and encouraging them even for his own ends.

Heck, I'm not sure he would have to reconcile anything with his twisted persepctive as of Infinity War and Endgame. His belief is that battles between supervillains and superheroes are stages on which people decide they're larger than life and harm everyone in between. Thanos taking it upon himself to kill half of the universe and prove the Avengers couldn't stop him would only vindicate that belief.

Likewise, that the Avengers fixed the situation after five years of turmoil, death and misery wouldn't necessarily change his mind, because that's the same thing that happened to Sokovia: the Avengers fixed the situation, but scores of people suffered nonetheless. If he's already in the mindset that "this shit is all the superheroes' fault no matter what they do to alleviate it," he's not likely to stop reinterpreting reality to fit his beliefs.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 2nd 2021 at 3:25:11 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#124735: Feb 2nd 2021 at 4:03:44 PM

Of course, in that particular case (AOU) he was right that it was the heroes fault (well, mainly Wanda and Tony).

He's wrong about blaming them for Infinity War. Thanos was going to happen regardless of whether the Avengers existed or not. But them coming back together is why it was undone, otherwise a lot of people would still not exist anymore.

Not that I expect him to realize that. He never intended to really deal with the consequences of his actions (like the death of a foreign head of state who had nothing to do with his vendetta). He was just gonna Lolnope himself out of taking responsibility via bullet.

....So my real point is, Tony Stark creates another super villain.[lol]

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124736: Feb 2nd 2021 at 4:04:48 PM

Of course, in that particular case (AOU) he was right that it was the heroes fault (well, mainly Wanda and Tony).

Yes, but in ways Zemo didn't actually know about. He was Right for the Wrong Reasons.

In particular, the thing the Avengers get repeatedly blamed for across the MCU regarding Sokovia is the fact that they had to defeat Ultron by dropping the city of Sokovia on top of the nation of Sokovia from several thousand feet up, killing scores of people - it's the thing Ross grills them for and the thing Tony specifically feels guilt for during that film, with chatter about it elsewhere as well (Zemo in particular is mad because the fallout of the impact killed his family while the Avengers faced no consequences). But ironically, of all the shit that happens in that movie which they're responsible for that horrible cataclysm might be the thing they had the least ability to stop.

It's unclear whether anyone is aware that Tony kinda sorta created Ultron, and especially if anyone's aware that Wanda helped him.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 2nd 2021 at 4:13:13 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#124737: Feb 2nd 2021 at 4:11:17 PM

Falcon: “why the heck are you hassling me and Bucky?”

Zemo: “Tony is dead, Rogers is only interested in shuffleboard now, and King T’Challa blocked me on social media”

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124738: Feb 2nd 2021 at 4:12:44 PM

Hey, now. Zemo likes T'Challa.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 2nd 2021 at 4:12:59 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#124739: Feb 2nd 2021 at 4:14:23 PM

That’s why T’Challa blocked him

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#124740: Feb 2nd 2021 at 4:40:45 PM

"Although I guess it might be neat to see Netflix's Bullseye as the next Hawkeye."

I'm sure if Bullseye returned, he would be a different character than Netflix. (Even if is with the same actor)

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Feb 2nd 2021 at 4:45:21 AM

eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#124741: Feb 2nd 2021 at 5:04:50 PM

It's a shame that, whatever they decided to do with Zemo, there wont be a T'Challa to react to it sad

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#124742: Feb 2nd 2021 at 5:12:20 PM

In the comics, Helmut Zemo has never been one to accept that he was wrong or be grateful towards the heroes even when they save him or even heal him. When Captain America gave him a chemical solution that would allow him to remove the mask that is permanently stuck on his face, Helmut simply lashes out and accuses Cap of withholding the cure for his father's face being stuck to the mask.

If we go by that, we can reason that Helmut Zemo would double down on destroying the Avengers. After all, his motive is one of personal revenge for his family, not to make the world a better place. While Captain America and several others went rogue, Iron Man was still in the US's good grace and still making tech for Peter Parker like the Iron Spider Suit. And Iron Man was considered to be the more dangerous of the two because he was technically responsible for Ultron and by extension, the whole Slokovia incident. Heck, it was Tony's tech science that ultimately gave the edge for the Avengers to undo Thanos himself.

Zemo reflect the irrationality of revenge, the same way that Tony wanting to kill Bucky has no rationale beyond "he killed my parents" or T'Challa wanting to kill the man who killed his father or Killmonger wanting to start global war against the world that he feels oppressed by. Nothing is achieved except the empty feeling of vengeance and planting the seeds of revenge in the near future.

Edited by Shadao on Feb 2nd 2021 at 5:13:08 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#124743: Feb 2nd 2021 at 5:29:15 PM

Or they just use Colin Farrell for a completely different Bullseye performance than the shitty 2000's movie.

The legend has returned.
AmazingSpiderHam Since: Sep, 2020
#124744: Feb 2nd 2021 at 6:42:05 PM

It occurs to me that Ben Affleck might actually make for a great 'Battling Jack' Murdock.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#124746: Feb 3rd 2021 at 7:08:02 AM

Makes sense, given the heavier focus they'll probably be putting on the government with Walker.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#124747: Feb 3rd 2021 at 11:13:38 AM

I can't wait for Armor Wars. An older disabled black man in a mecha suit fighting a bunch of other guys in mecha suits sounds like an awesome ride, and I want to see Rhodey fighting for Tony Stark's legacy in the name of his best friend.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124748: Feb 3rd 2021 at 1:14:50 PM

I can't wait to see some of the more weird and bizarre tech baddies appear, too. Like Unicorn.

Also, we might finally get Living Laser. I've been waiting for that dude for years. Years.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#124749: Feb 3rd 2021 at 1:23:41 PM

Of all the projects they've announced, Armor Wars and Secret Invasion might be the two I'm looking forward to most.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#124750: Feb 3rd 2021 at 2:31:58 PM

Honestly, Rhodey is long overdue for getting a story focused on him. Apparently there were plans for a solo film starring him after Phase One, but that just got pushed to the sidelines.


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