TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#124501: Jan 23rd 2021 at 11:33:46 AM

Avengers was less ashamed to be a comic book movie than X Men. That helps

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124502: Jan 23rd 2021 at 11:34:50 AM

Some of the dialogue in Whedons' Avengers is really good, and some of it is really bad. There's very little middle ground.

In general, he did Banner very well in Avengers 1 - I'd even say that Avengers 1 is the best writing Banner's ever had in the MCU - and his line for Fury "up until a time in which the world ends, we must act as though it intends to spin on" is something I've quoted a lot of times in the last four years. I liked his characterization for Cap in the first Avengers, even if Winter Soldier's characterization was far better, and he's great at action scenes or suspense scenes and the like (imo his introduction of Klaue is underrated).

But on the other hand, he's also responsible for some of the worst jokes in the entire MCU, owing to him being willing to veer the writing out of character for funny, and a lot of both movies just feel awkward when you're not watching them with a theatre reacting to every moment.

Generally, Whedon comes off as believing that being sarcastic, being able to kick ass, and having an angsty backstory are all you need for a strong characterization. Which... well... yeah. Network television.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#124503: Jan 23rd 2021 at 11:35:32 AM

I wasn't really that fond of the first Avengers film even when it came out, because I wasn't invested in most of the characters at the time; the solo films leading up to it I found very middling or downright bad besides IM 1, and didn't give me much of a reason to care about them. Since the whole appeal was in the team-up aspect without much else to offer, all the characters getting together really didn't work for me. I remember my brother actually found it so boring he straight up walked out to do something else.

With the benefit of time and my critical eye evolving, I can see the appeal of the film a bit more clearly but I'd still consider it mostly an "ok" film that really only gets super exciting in the final act. And even then it's still mostly just a popcorn flick, it's fine but nothing all that special.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jan 23rd 2021 at 4:37:45 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#124504: Jan 23rd 2021 at 11:46:42 AM

Last time I watched the first Avengers I thought it held up pretty solid but I always saw it as functioning on a sort of ramshackle smoke and mirrors that the film itself stands on a strong cast that was previously established across several films and letting them basically riff for two hours. The film itself is very boilerplate.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#124505: Jan 23rd 2021 at 11:52:43 AM

Avengers 1 is my favorite of all four Avengers movies and I feel it holds up the best by comparison in character arc and thematic consistency. But I admit you probably had to see it in a theater for it to awe and outside of that it can come off as otherwise underwhelming.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#124506: Jan 23rd 2021 at 12:00:25 PM

To me the best Avengers film would likely either be Infinity War or Civil War.

I just love wars.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#124507: Jan 23rd 2021 at 12:16:53 PM

I DID see it in theatres, just like every MCU movie safe for the first 2 Cap films. And I did love the hell out of it back then. I just don't think it aged very well.

Iron Man 1 f.e., I can still watch with much joy today.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#124508: Jan 23rd 2021 at 12:33:16 PM

Yeah it's uh weird but iron man 1 is actually still pretty decent even now. Hell Obadiah is a pretty underrated villain too.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#124509: Jan 23rd 2021 at 12:44:27 PM

But on the other hand, he's also responsible for some of the worst jokes in the entire MCU, owing to him being willing to veer the writing out of character for funny

Your Mileage May Vary. One person's "out of character for the sake of a joke" is another person's "joke used to reveal a new facet of a character".

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#124510: Jan 23rd 2021 at 1:02:07 PM

I believe I've watched every MCU film in theaters except Iron Man, ironically enough. And yeah it holds up pretty well.

I think First Avenger also holds up pretty well as a Indiana Jones/Rocketeer-esque pulp ride with teeth (Steve's sacrifice is always packs quite the punch).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#124511: Jan 23rd 2021 at 2:07:38 PM

I've literally never missed a single MCU film in theatres.

At most, I had to wait a few months for Black Panther, but I was able to avoid spoilers pretty well.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124512: Jan 23rd 2021 at 2:20:49 PM

[up][up][up] I think it's giving Whedon too much credit to say that he was trying to use his jokes to expand our understanding of the characters, especially since many of the things he turns into jokes are never mentioned again even within his own movies. Tony - though a womanizer - is far less so than his Prima Nocta joke implies, Thor never indicates that he's willing to dismiss Loki as adopted when it's inconvenient ever again, etc and so on.

Those are lines that clearly came from a place of "this is funny" first and "would the characters actually say or think these things" second.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 23rd 2021 at 2:23:31 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#124513: Jan 23rd 2021 at 2:31:14 PM

Ever since I first watched The Avengers (2012), I've never missed a single MCU film in theaters. The only exception was Captain Marvel (2019), and that was because my dad was recovering from knee surgery at the time and I always watch the films with him.

123tbones Since: Aug, 2015
#124514: Jan 23rd 2021 at 2:44:47 PM

The only MCU film I didn't watch in theaters was Iron Man 2. Probably a good choice but then again me and my family watched Ridley Scott's Robin Hood around the time that movie was playing so I don't know.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124515: Jan 23rd 2021 at 2:56:03 PM

Pretty sure I watched every MCU movie that’s come out in theaters.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 23rd 2021 at 2:56:08 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#124516: Jan 23rd 2021 at 2:58:24 PM

I think the "He's adopted" line makes sense for Thor's character.

He's used to whatever minor mischief Loki gets up to being easily outweighed by the respect owed to the royal family of Asgard. So when people start slagging on Loki, of course Thor's first instinct is to defend him by reminding everyone that Loki is his brother and a prince of Asgard.

Except not only do the people he's talking to have no fealty to Asgardian royalty, but Loki's latest antics are far more murdery than in the past. When Natasha points this out, Thor realizes that, in emphasizing his relationship to Loki, rather than making Loki look better by association, he's making himself look worse by association. He then abruptly (and awkwardly) tries walk back his last statement and deemphasize their relationship, so the others don't start thinking Loki's villainy might be In the Blood.

That Thor cares about what other people think of him, and would prefer not to have Loki's evil actions associated with him or his family: I'm not seeing how that doesn't fit his character. You can argue that he wouldn't phrase it that way, given the pseudo-Shakespearian way Asgardians normally talk, but peppering his dialogue with those sorts of oddly modern/informal statements has become part of Thor's established character, even in the hands of other writers ("I know him! He's a friend from work!")

As for the Prima Nocta line, I think Tony's reasoning there is pretty simple: he thinks having a king (especially one chosen by a magic hammer) is stupid, so he makes the point that any rando could pick up Mjolnir, become king of Asgard, and ... what's something old-timey kings used to do that no one agrees with anymore? ... ah, Prima Nocta, that'll work.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#124517: Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:00:32 PM

Hulk smashing Loki is the main reason for watching Avengers 1

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124518: Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:02:38 PM

Except not only do the people he's talking to have no fealty to Asgardian royalty, but Loki's latest antics are far more murdery than in the past. When Natasha points this out, Thor realizes that, in emphasizing his relationship to Loki, rather than making Loki look better by association, he's making himself look worse by association. He then abruptly (and awkwardly) tries walk back his last statement and deemphasize their relationship, so the others don't start thinking Loki's villainy might be In the Blood.

That Thor doesn't start distancing himself from Loki based on his villainy - and certainly doesn't start seeing Loki as less of his brother because of his villainy in any other media (or anywhere else within The Avengers itself) - makes the idea that he goes through some kind of development to start doing so during the events of The Avengers lose it's ability to hold water. He does not actually exhibit any of this - which is why it's out of character. It's a side of his personality that does not exist anywhere else except that one joke Whedon wrote.

Canonically, Thor doesn't start thinking "Loki's too much of a villain for us to be close" until Thor 3, and that movie does a lot better of a job utilizing that as a character trait Thor is beginning to exhibit. This is the same guy who, a scene ago, tries to mash a dude attempting to defuse a misunderstanding into the ground for no adequate reason (Whedon was all over the place with Thor's personality in that movie, tbh).

Hell, even the idea that Thor would dial back on something he feels is righteously true to avoid an awkward situation, Loki or not, is out of character for Thor at that point in time.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:04:51 AM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#124519: Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:04:29 PM

@ Known Unknown - I quite agree.

I have mini-rant about the prima noctis one and how it's very much an Overly Pre-Prepared Gag. It's possible I'm off-base here, but my impression is that the French word for the (quasi-fictional) concept, Droit du Seigneur is much more commonly used, probably because the concept was popularized/invented by French Enlightenment writers.

So, it comes across as particularly inorganic that Tony would both reference the concept (in a way that is more jerkish than is accurate to his character) and would use the more obscure term for it.

Also, I'm not familiar with all the examples, but apparently Whedon has a "thing" about using outdated sexual terms (cool), often in a misogynistic context (not cool). Like I believe the use of "quim" in The Avengers also shows up in Buffy the Vampire Slayer and/or Firefly.

Tangentially related - I learned recently that Ian Doescher, who has done Shakespeare-styled adaptations of Star Wars movies (among others) is doing one for the Avengers movies, and one reason I look forward to it is because for better or worse, Whedon likes his Shakespeare.

Edited by Hodor2 on Jan 23rd 2021 at 5:08:43 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124520: Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:08:31 PM

I imagine the Prima Noctis joke started out as "what's a raunchy drunken joke that a really smart and educated person would tell," and there wasn't much thought to it than that.

I do think the joke is a believable thing someone who isn't rapey would necessarily tell, but it's still lends to a kind of person Tony isn't. The former president of the US got into trouble for making an extremely nasty sexual harassment joke (yet somehow still got elected, go fig) a while ago, and it was dismissed as "locker room talk," which is the same kind of idea you get from that joke: it's the kind of thing a sexist, immature frat boy would say to impress the buds int he locker room, just cleverer. Which, while Tony did have a womanizing problem, is very much not in character for him. For all his irreverence, Tony is not the frat boy type.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:11:06 AM

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#124521: Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:12:32 PM

I think Avengers was a great movie for the time as a climax to Phase 1, and it's still more than watchable now, in fact I'd say it's the "best" Avengers movie by far (though I might give IW a personal edge just because of the Guardians, even if they were a helluva mixed bag there). But of course, there's a whole lot about it that hasn't aged too well (which is quite analogous of Whedon's work in general, even if I think some of it's still pretty good), and I think its shortcomings would only grow worse and more egregious in AOU - namely, the ill-thought-out humor and snark and much of Natasha's character in general. I'll stick with the Guardians (at least before they crossed over into the larger MCU and took a blow to their writing quality, at least IMO), thanks.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#124522: Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:16:36 PM

I'm not saying Thor thought Loki was too villainous to be close to, just that he realized (a moment too late) that it was maybe bad tact to tout their relationship in front of the people Loki is currently trying to kill and enslave.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124523: Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:18:06 PM

There's a difference between dialing back on crowing about their relationship and going "he's not actually my brother, he's adopted."

The latter implies a degree of shame in the relationship that Thor shows nowhere else, and again the whole idea that if Thor feels strongly about something he would deny feeling it to spare other people's feelings is also not really in character for him anyway.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#124524: Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:20:18 PM

I still like the first Avengers movie. It is quite rewatchable on its own, even if rewatching it now does not compare to the initial awe of having all these characters from the different movies finally meet in the same movie. It it is easy to forget now that this was the first MCU movie to actually do that and cement the fact that all this was happening in a shared universe, especially since nowadays it would be having a solo MCU film not referencing another or having a cameo from another character that would be noteworthy.
Also, I got a nerdgasm when the helicarrier took off.

One film that I was surprised to enjoy a bit less upon rewatching was GoG2. I do still enjoy it whenever I rewatch it, but I definitely laugh a lot less than I did on first viewing.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#124525: Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:34:17 PM

While I wasn't personally bothered by the "he's adopted" joke, I think it speaks to a larger issue felt with Whedon's films in that he didn't seem to really know what to do with Thor.

Now, Thor has the most personal stakes in the film, since he's trying to stop his brother from taking over the Earth. But you'll notice that he's not on-screen a whole lot of the time. It's especially notable in that he doesn't appear until the very end of the first act, while all the other Avengers had been properly introduced in the film by that point.

This problem only got more pronounced in AOU, since while the rest of the cast are busy dealing with the personal issues and being introspective on the Barton farm, Thor flies off just so he can learn about the Infinity Stones and move the story along. While the visions Wanda gives Steve and Natasha feed into their own character arcs, the same can't really be said for Thor's. It hints at Thor fearing he'll lead Asgard and his people towards destruction, but it doesn't really inform his actions for the rest of the film. It felt more like foreshadowing for what Raganrok was supposed to be like before Taika Waititi came onboard the project.

You can also tell in how the Whedon films, the main trio for the Avengers seems to be Steve, Tony, and Bruce, as they seem to get the most focus (with Natasha rounding up for a quartet). In the Russo films, Bruce is pushed into the background more and have Thor fill in for him as part of the main trio.


Total posts: 186,763
Top