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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124001: Dec 19th 2020 at 4:06:11 PM

My fairest take on Whedon's characterization problems is that even though he started in film, nowadays he has a tendency to writes like he's writing network tv due to his years in that medium: that is, primarily just making sure the characters are distinctly (if occasionally homogenously) charismatic so that the audience can have fun with them, and then slowly if occasionally filling in substance and depth through brief bits of drama later down the line.

Likewise, he's the kind of guy who sometimes tends towards leaning on big things to give characters depth when he wants to (which another think typical of writing network tv). Stuff like giving Widow a big "I turns out I can't have kids and my upbringing made me think I'm a monster!" scene and figuring that's all the focus she needs, vs just generally writing her in more nuanced way (I'm always reminded of his maligned pitch for a Batgirl movie, where he felt the need to give Barbara Gordon a horrific trauma to motivate her into being a heroine). Compare Widow's best movie appearances, in TWS or other Russo films, where she's not always necessarily a main character but is so good because her character comes across well just in general conversation.

Across his career, his best characters were the result of years of constant development. But in individual projects, you get those problems because he focuses on making them cool and funny first, and doesn't insert character development or depth especially well.

That said, his work on Banner (at least, in Avengers 1) was fantastic and is something I will freely admit is an exception.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 19th 2020 at 4:14:22 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#124002: Dec 19th 2020 at 4:16:35 PM

I say there's some attempt to humanize Ultron beyond his quips and tantrums. There's his connection to the Maximoffs and how he seems genuinely hurt by their betrayal. It's like he desperately wants to have some connection with another person, which is probably why he keeps Natasha alive after he kidnaps her. "I wasn't sure you'd wake up. I hoped you would, I wanted to show you something. I don't have anyone else." There's a twinge of melancholy to Spader's performance here, and you can see the hint of something more to his character in bits like this and his final scene with Vision.

I just kind of wish there was a bit more focus with the character and his motives. It's all over the map.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124003: Dec 19th 2020 at 4:29:57 PM

I think what struck me most about him is this line when he captured Black Widow.

"I was meant to be new, I was meant to be beautiful. The world would have looked to the sky and seen hope."

The implication that he is self-aware of how utterly flawed he is and it gives him an immense feeling of self-loathing adds a good amount of tragedy to the character.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#124004: Dec 19th 2020 at 4:39:03 PM

That line is weird to me because when he was making his Vision body his plan was still to nuke everybody/drop a meteor on everybody so it’s not clear how getting his body stolen pushed him over an edge at all.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 19th 2020 at 4:39:31 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124005: Dec 19th 2020 at 7:00:19 PM

Huh I was just watching this scene.

Oh fuck Bruce fell into Nat's breasts, thats where that joke came from. Its at 1:35 mark.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The One Who Knows Many Things
#124006: Dec 19th 2020 at 7:17:27 PM

slimcoder:All Ultron is insanely violent, ungodly arrogant, & prone to snarking.

So I guess rage, pride, & a terrible sense of humor is all you need to make a human. tongue

He did have access to internet...

I assure you, I'm perfectly trustable person
Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#124007: Dec 19th 2020 at 7:24:51 PM

Whedon's films were atrocious. He has no sense of nuance and can't stop himself from defusing the barely there tension.

Just Having Fun
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#124008: Dec 19th 2020 at 9:30:40 PM

Eh. I have that problem with the second one more than the first. I generally still like Avengers 1.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#124009: Dec 19th 2020 at 9:36:22 PM

The first one had low enough stakes and less Protection from Editors so it was still pretty enjoyable.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124010: Dec 19th 2020 at 9:37:11 PM

Doesn’t help that the 2nd one was heavily marketed as a far more serious film.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#124011: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:15:27 PM

I re-watched the first one last year. It's...aged in areas and has been outdone by various subsequent entries, but it's still pretty good, especially for the time and as a capping off of what Phase 1 was setting up. It might be the "best" of the Avengers movies by far, thinking it over.

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Dec 19th 2020 at 10:44:06 AM

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#124012: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:20:09 PM

I rewatched it recently as well. It was alright. I liked the actual evacuation of civilians being backed by SHIELD.

That being said, the "prima nocta" crack really did not age well, and Quicksilver's death just being ignored by the entire cast was just weird for me.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#124013: Dec 19th 2020 at 10:50:20 PM

It is kind of hilarious just how thoroughly ignored Quicksilver has been since then.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#124014: Dec 19th 2020 at 11:28:39 PM

I think the very first point I started noticing the problems with the first two Avengers movies was with the "he's adopted" joke from the first one. It's a laugh out loud moment, but literally the moment you start thinking about it starts feeling wrong: it's not something Thor would actually say, and coming off of Thor's own movie and his history with Loki it actually comes off as rather awful on his lips - as if the character is speaking what the writers' considered funny rather than in their own voice.

Once I realized that I started noticing that that's everywhere in Whedon's Marvel movies. And not just for the sake of being funny, but for the sake of being cool or epic and referential and so on or so forth, the characters will just do or say or believe whatever. The best description I remember hearing about him was that he a guy who films to moments: funny moments, epic moments, whatever, with everything about about getting from one moment that makes the theatre laugh or whoop or whatever to another.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#124015: Dec 19th 2020 at 11:43:49 PM

I had a similar feeling with the "that's not a party" joke from Natasha as well, particularly since she was usually characterized as someone with more self-awareness than that.

Whedon ends up subsuming characterization for the sake of jokes that don't always land, and often to the detriment of the writing.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#124016: Dec 19th 2020 at 11:49:27 PM

Whedon feels like someone who writes stuff to fill in trope pages.

Appropriate, given this whole site was spawned from a Buffy fansite.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124017: Dec 19th 2020 at 11:57:17 PM

The MCU being stereotyped as a constant quipathon had to come from somewhere.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#124018: Dec 20th 2020 at 1:40:42 AM

I'd argue it's not too far removed on the quality scale from Batman v Superman. Which I don't even really hate - same with AOU (which I know some people here REALLY fucking loathe, this and BVS) - but objectively that's kind of a crippling insult honestly. That one also happens to fall into the same sort of trap with the Avengers movies with regards to some neat, perhaps even really good bits, casting, shots and action scenes that, when strung together as a whole movie, feel deflated and hollow in terms of substance. I'd obviously take any of those over BVS (and especially over Justice League, a good case of two negatives NOT making a positive even if they're only partly to blame), but I feel safe calling them solid concentrations of a lot of what's wrong with this franchise. But that's all IMO obviously.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#124019: Dec 20th 2020 at 3:01:02 AM

It’s the equal and opposite problems with each other. One is too much grimdark undercutting a fantastic (in the “fantasy” sense of the word) premise, the other is too comedy undercutting its own attempts at drama.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#124020: Dec 20th 2020 at 3:07:35 AM

Balancing the two is easier when writing for television, but it's a lot harder to do when writing for a movie.

Disgusted, but not surprised
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#124021: Dec 20th 2020 at 4:55:26 AM

She-Hulk Will Be a Half-Hour Legal Comedy Series.

Marvel Studios head Kevin Feige revealed that Marvel/Disney+'s upcoming She-Hulk series will be experimenting with a new format for the Marvel Cinematic Universe — a half-hour, legal comedy. This will mark the first time an MCU show will enter the procedural realm.

Feige shared details about the show's format and length in an interview with Emmy Magazine via Comicbook.com. Feige also pointed out that most of Marvel's planned shows being developed within the MCU are expected to clock in at an hour per episode.

During the She-Hulk discussion at Disney's Investor Day, Feige also made it clear that the series will focus on Walters' work as a lawyer and teased that it could feature a storyline involving Charlie Cox's portrayal of Matt Murdock/Daredevil. It was previously rumored that Cox might appear in Spider-Man 3, which is currently scheduled for a theatrical release on Dec. 17, 2021.

She-Hulk is also expected to feature a female villain, who is described as a social media influencer with a dark side. The character, which is currently known as the codename Lucy, is expected to feature prominently in the series and appear in at least five episodes.

She-Hulk is directed by Kat Coiro and Anu Valia, with Jessica Gao (Rick and Morty) serving as head writer. The series stars Tatiana Maslany, Tim Roth and Mark Ruffalo. The series does not currently have a release date. Meanwhile, Marvel fans can look forward to Wanda Vision, which stars Elizabeth Olsen and Paul Bettany, and will premiere on Disney+ on Jan. 15.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#124022: Dec 20th 2020 at 6:48:02 AM

I wouldn’t have it any other way.

The legend has returned.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#124023: Dec 20th 2020 at 7:08:39 AM

Yeah that’s basically what I wanted a she hulk show to be

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#124024: Dec 20th 2020 at 7:10:55 AM

I too was hoping for She-Hulk to be a legal comedy. I am quite pleased with this news.

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#124025: Dec 20th 2020 at 9:05:31 AM

Any Hulk storylines anyone wants to see incorporated? Obviously, I don't mean something that will completely overshadow Jen, but arcs you're sad were never adapted and could believably be fit in, or adapted to center around Jen.


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