TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#123976: Dec 19th 2020 at 1:54:16 PM

I just realized something.

We’re okay with one Tony Stark, but 2 Tony Starks is just too fucking much. [lol]

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#123977: Dec 19th 2020 at 1:58:24 PM

For all we know, Ultron's plan should be kind of Brother Eye-ish turning people into weird cyborgs to eliminate potential mutates or hostiles with criteria that'd off most of humanity or something.

Wake me up at your own risk.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#123978: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:00:17 PM

“I just think that Black Widow would look good with spider legs is all” - Ultron

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#123979: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:03:59 PM

Ya know on further thought, at least with Pym generally the creation of Ultron would ultimately define & haunt him forever as it should because this is the biggest mistake of his life.

Tony on the other hand doesn’t seem particularly bothered by the fact he created a hyper-intelligent super strong AI, to the point of creating another hyper-intelligent super strong AI to fight the previous one. He only started feeling any sort of actual regret for his actions in Civil War.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 19th 2020 at 2:07:57 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#123980: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:07:28 PM

He never really stopped thinking of the world with armor, did he?

Wake me up at your own risk.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#123981: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:09:53 PM

Late, but I just wanna say that I find "emotionally compromised metal human who tries to pretend he's a flawless, calculating machine" is much more interesting an antagonist than "actually is a flawless, calculating machine".

Ultron's emotional vulnerabilities are simultaneously a humanizing element and the cause of his villainy. Without it he'd just be a boring force of nature like a tornado or a tsunami.

Age of Ultron as a film has many flaws but Ultron's characterization and Spader's performance therein aren't part of that. At least in my opinion.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#123982: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:25:17 PM

I don’t mind Ultron being a flawed mess instead of a “perfect” cold calculator, but he was definitely more compelling to me at the start of the film when his characterization was “unsettling Cleverbot jargon” instead of “waah I hate Dad”.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#123983: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:26:28 PM

Ha ha comic Ultron sure leans towards that second one

Until he fused with dad

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#123984: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:31:03 PM

Whedon just fell into his worst traps there, especially in how he portrayed Ultron as a quip-master.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#123985: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:33:25 PM

Yeah. While I'm still totally fine with the movie, this seems to have been the film that totally broke his credibility with...well everyone.

Cause we all still love the OG Avengers film, but I'm guessing the criticisms many have for AOU get levied at this as well.

One Strip! One Strip!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#123986: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:49:34 PM

Maybe Radioactive Man can be composited into Abomination's character, by giving the latter a power-up.

That would be random and not make much sense.

And if he were to get a power up, it would make far more sense that to go with the version of Abomination introduced in Immortal Hulk.

Edited by Cortez on Dec 19th 2020 at 6:55:30 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#123987: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:51:12 PM

I'm not sure how much of the film's issues were with Whedon or with the executives, although it seems to be an even mix of both. From what I can recall, Whedon wanted the film to be more down-to-earth and emotional, which you can see the most during the scenes at the Barton farm. But Marvel wanted something bigger and more intense, hence the big international set-pieces and all the foreshadowing to later films. So, some questionable ideas came from that clash (such as Thor's random quest to learn about the Infinity Stones) and others were probably Whedon's ideas to begin with (such the Bruce/Natasha romance).

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#123988: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:51:57 PM

I think Ultron went evil simply because he was Bruce and Tony's first draft of a world-protecting AI. No one expects a first draft to be perfect.

Had things gone according to plan, Ultron's creation would have been followed by a long period of examination, where various flaws and instabilities in its programming would be found, with the code tweaked or patched as needed to create something that worked as intended. Unfortunately, Ultron escaped the lab almost immediately, before all that fine-tuning could be done. He's like a shoddily made anti-virus program that tries to delete your operating system.

Edited by RavenWilder on Dec 19th 2020 at 2:52:50 AM

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#123989: Dec 19th 2020 at 2:56:29 PM

Funny thing is Bruce had created an A.I. that went all yandere on him.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#123990: Dec 19th 2020 at 3:03:44 PM

Even if the process itself is rather reckless, I actually really appreciate the narrative having them try again with Vision and succeeding.

I've always hated those "this particular science experiment ended in disaster, so we must deem this field of technology evil forever and bury it in the annals of human history" morals. Technology should be improved, not discarded.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#123991: Dec 19th 2020 at 3:04:06 PM

I mean I've said it before, while Age Of Ultron was definitely Darker and Edgier it was not to the extent that the trailers made it out to be. And I felt like the movie would've been stronger if it had been. Like if the tone had been more like Winter Soldier or Civil War, I wouldn't have had a problem, but at time I felt like the characters were just quipping so much, when it would have been better to let tension build. Like for example late in the movie Thor is confronting one of Ultron's bodies and gives a big speech which ends with "I am running out of things to say" and then the body is destroyed out of nowhere by Vision. I feel like that would have still worked without the joke at the end. Like he gives a big speech and the body is destroyed out of nowhere, while he's making a dramatic speech; that still works and is surprising.

Edited by jjjj2 on Dec 19th 2020 at 6:04:41 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#123992: Dec 19th 2020 at 3:21:14 PM

Whedon has a underlying problem in that he has explicitly said that his idea for the Avengers is that they're unbeatable once they assemble and nothing can really stand up against them, so the villains get by on their general lack of coordination rather than an actual threat. This worked well for the Avengers's introductory film (given it's basically establishing them as a team), but in AOU it gets pretty farcical.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#123993: Dec 19th 2020 at 3:23:18 PM

It’s good for multiple reasons that he didn’t write Infinity War

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#123994: Dec 19th 2020 at 3:33:18 PM

Considering how a lot of Thanos’ popularity is due to him actually living up to the hype and being a memetic badass, ooooh boy it’s a good thing he wasn’t involved.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#123995: Dec 19th 2020 at 3:38:42 PM

Joss Whedon was into subverting expectations when it was still fresh and before it just became unsatisfying.

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#123996: Dec 19th 2020 at 3:48:25 PM

Nowadays, not subverting expectations is subverting expectations grin

Or, at least, subverting them in a good way.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#123997: Dec 19th 2020 at 3:59:11 PM

Late, but I just wanna say that I find "emotionally compromised metal human who tries to pretend he's a flawless, calculating machine" is much more interesting an antagonist than "actually is a flawless, calculating machine".

Ultron's emotional vulnerabilities are simultaneously a humanizing element and the cause of his villainy. Without it he'd just be a boring force of nature like a tornado or a tsunami.

Age of Ultron as a film has many flaws but Ultron's characterization and Spader's performance therein aren't part of that. At least in my opinion.

See, that's the thing. Ultron doesn't come off as particularly human, at least imo. He doesn't have humanlike responses to things, nor do his decisions make sense as something a human being can do - even an emotionally traumatized one.

I've always perceived that as kind of being on Whedon, because for a very long time Whedon has come off as believing that just being sarcastic and having the occasional brief emotional meltdown is all you need to be relateable to a human audience. The flaws in Ultron's charcater are things I'm used to seeing happen when Whedon is at the helm (and it's a problem both Avengers movies have, tbh), and because of that I've never really bought the take that Ultron is a particularly human bad guy.

He's certainly an imitation of humanity, but lacks emotion beyond "angry and wants to kill everything," which he would have had even if he was a flawless, calculating machine.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 19th 2020 at 4:02:30 AM

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#123998: Dec 19th 2020 at 3:59:41 PM

It's all down to execution. And some things subvert them better than...other things.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#123999: Dec 19th 2020 at 4:01:57 PM

Maybe he was just trying to avoid making another Adam?

[down] Well, you're not right but you're not wrong... tongue

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Dec 19th 2020 at 4:05:31 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#124000: Dec 19th 2020 at 4:03:36 PM

All Ultron is insanely violent, ungodly arrogant, & prone to snarking.

So I guess rage, pride, & a terrible sense of humor is all you need to make a human. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Total posts: 186,763
Top